post from a PP Press Ganger

by **dork_jedi** Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:12 pm

Found this interesting, original post here: http://ghettokorestudios.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/first-game-get-out-and-play/

3:32 AM
First game; get out and play
from Ghettokore Studios
by bobaferret

Just wanted to mention I played my first Mk II game. It was just like Mk I, but faster.

The things that worried me weren’t an issue.

Terrain and LOS didn’t come into play.

Cygnar still has plenty of “flavor” as does Ashynn.

Nemo still can’t stop a sword with his face.

I’ll probably do a proper battle report in the next day. But what I wanted to mention was a fabulous phone call I had with Privateer Press on Thursday afternoon.

I talked with Kevin first, and asked about my PG hazard pay. He says the check’s in the mail, but I know better than to believe him. We chatted about some of the negative reactions to Mk II and said he hadn’t heard an example as extreme as mine. Then he passed me to Dan (PPS_Biggie, my PG boss) and we had a wonderful conversation.

See, contrary to opinions on the forums, these guys know there are things that need to be fixed. They know it’s not perfect. They don’t operate in a vacuum and they read ALL of the feedback that’s been submitted (I don’t envy PPS_DC). With four days down, they’ve made significant changes to LOS and “volume” of models — all thanks to the feedback of player who took the time to articulate their concerns.

Long story short, I came away from the phone call in a great mood (Dan and Kevin freakin’ rock) after a fairly shitty Wednesday night. Dan knew the situation, as do a handful of you, and I got a great reminder that the Gang — and Privateer staff — have my back. I’m a lot more confident about Mk II despite having some reservations.

That being said.

Do not feed me any line of bullshit that Privateer doesn’t care about its players or what Mk II means for Warmachine. Do not have the gall to tell me it’s doomed to fail if you haven’t read through the rules and put pewter on the board. Do not try to poison the well with gloom and doom if you’re unwilling to give it a try with a borrowed army. You want to be negative? Take that shit somewhere else. Some of us are busy trying to make Warmachine a better game, trying to fix some of the stuff that freaked us out when we saw the cards on Monday.

If you don’t believe me, if I’m not fucking “official” enough, I’ll be happy to give you the direct line to Kevin Clark and Dan Brandt. Hell, I’ll call them from my phone so it won’t charge you a damn thing. If that’s not good enough, I’ll give you Matt Wilson’s email address and you can deal with the man himself.

Heading into Day 5, we’re approaching the point where folks are going to get on board or get left behind. Which type of player do you want to be? Do you want to mope, and say “Privateer doesn’t care what I have to say, it won’t matter” or do you want to open your eyes and see that the process is working?

PPS_Kevin, CptCain, Godimuspryme, Rawtooth, Devilsquid, bobaferret, PPS_Biggie

I didn’t plan on turning this into a rant, but there you go. I guess if the uninformed can be ignorantly passionate, I can counter that with the passion that made me want to be a Press Ganger in the first place. You want to be passionate about Privateer Press wronged you, shot your hamster and wrecked your Yugo? I can be passionate about what a great thing Warmachine is, how it’s helped me form some fantastic friendships despite the thousands of miles in between. You see that picture? I hadn’t met any of those guys until Templecon, would not have met them without Warmachine. I consider all of them my friends, aside from the stupid waiter in the back. Sure, my passion and enjoyment aren’t going to be the same as yours or the next persons. But I’m not putting that energy into negativity.

For every negative argument, I can find something positive — and still admit that there is a lot of work to be done with Mk II.

Watch out, bitches. This bitch is back.

by Kyle Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:39 pm

Be more interested in hearing opinions from non press gangers.

PP and all the press gangers for years acted superior and that the game was perfect as is, and suddenly they come out with a new edition, and it's a complete overhaul of the system?

So now they make changes and once again press gangers and PP are going to take the stance that it's all good and right? Like last time guys?

by **dork_jedi** Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:00 pm

Kyle, with all due respect, when was the last time you had a model on the table? Have you tried the rules? I'm sure you've read them as I have, but I can't make an informed decision until I see all the pieces of the puzzle together. Once I get in a few games I will be sure to let you know how I feel about it.

by Kyle Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:12 pm

Haven't played in about a year now, but played the game since it launched originally before that and sold my old army.

I personally could care less whats going on with MK2 till it's finally out and we can see how it all turns out, right now just looking at bunch of stuff that's not final so I won't say anything myself on my feelings of MK2, but obviously many others are.

Just find it ironic how they are listening to people now but you get people like this who are telling ppl to stfu when it's those same people who can potentially fix everything.

by **Ovich** Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:32 pm

I don't know Kyle. PP has a much better history of listening to their core gamers than GW has.

I don't see what the big hubbub is . GW changes their rules system like every five years or so. I mean pretty soon they're gonna be on 8th edition fantasy. Problem is, when they change the game, they don't listen to what their gamers want the most.

by Kyle Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:45 am

In what way has PP listened to its core gamers in the past?

I know people hate the way GW handles things but that has what to do with anything that PP does? Heck GW and PP aren't the only game companies out there.

PP has always been resistant to admitting any issues with it's games rules (d=, they pretty much never change anything about a product they release even if there complaints levied against it. Anything that seemed off about WM or Hordes was always met with "it's all broken, so it's okay". They would fix only an actual error in production such as typo on something with an errata, but they rarely ever would change their mind once something was officially in print.

MK2 is really the first time ever that PP has ever admitted to problem with it's actual games. But in it's history on the market PP has really never done anything of the sort to fix any concerns or show they actually listened to peoples opinions of their games. The only thing that they have ever shown any type of concern is redoing or fixing up some figures that caused ire. The changes in MK2 do seem like they are listening finally to the fan base, or at least some of us, but it's been many years now that it took them to show any indication of this.

Heck reading through peoples posts on the official forums people are acting like PP is the devil and bringing the end of the world now. Obviously overreaction, we get the same with every incarnation of the WH games if they change way to much.

As for GW products and what players want, I don't think anything of the sort will ever be achieved since the players don't seem to know what they want. Any change makes some happy, while others scream bloody murder. Seeing same with peoples reactions of MK2. Happens for every game system, you can't make changes without upsetting some people, no need to tell them to stfu or just roll over and accept it if they have valid concerns. PP is doing good thing by letting people try all this out publicly first and not some closed beta test like most companies do.

by galonso Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:06 am

I dont know why dork_jedi posted this. Bobaferret had someone tell her to fuck off and die when she was dicussing Mark II in her store and the guy made a big scene. (Shes a female and is about 5 feet tall if that). Shes a little rattled by all the complaints and whining whether justified or not. So you have to understand the context of where she is coming from.

I had some people get pretty emotional when discussing MkII at Sunshine as well.

Here's my opinion -

If you dont play the game and you're not playtesting the new rules, pretty much any analysis of the situation that you have is not going to have much weight with me.

I play this game alot. Maybe too much. Both Mark I and now testing Mark II. I don't talk out of my ass. If I tell you something, its 90% accurate unless I'm misinformed which sometimes happens (but rarely).

Most of the people on the PP forums are rabble rousers and trolls. They like to talk crap and complain about anything and everything. Some don't even play! One guy on the board had thousands of posts (so youd assume he's knowledgeable) and was posting like he was an authority. Come to find out he owns none of the books, zero models, and never plays. Its all theorymachine. That's one reason why I started Guru Dojo.com. A place where you can go to get accurate information from dedicated players who actually play.

The second group are bad players and they are crying because they took away certain easy buttons or unbalanced models and/or abilities. They will bitch and cry and sell their armies. They don't comprehend that for the longevity of the game and to promote a positive play experience these things needed to change. See ya. Good riddance.

Then you have the last group of players who have some issues with some of the rules or model changes. Those break down into two camps. Those who will test and provide feedback and those who won't.

If you're just going to bitch and not take advantage of the opportunity that PP has given to provide feedback thats your decision. Don't come crying or complaining to me later because I won't care. Now's your chance to make a difference. If you don't believe this to be the case and that nothing will come of it. So be it. Let the rest of us enjoy the game we love.

OR you can analyze the rules and models and back it up with in game data and provide suggestions to improve or change the models. That is something PP will listen to.

Mark II has some issues that raised my eyebrows. I am going to analyze them, test extensively, and then provide a report of my findings.

All this nonsense about loss of flavor and generic troops is bullshit. Certain models may need to be tweaked but Cryx still feels like Cryx and Khador still feels like Khador in the games I've played. In the coming weeks Ill explore the other factions.

I invite everyone who gives a crap to come out and test with us. If not, have fun doing whatever else it is you do. Very Happy

<---KTMT

by Kyle Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:05 pm

This being the first real new redo/revision of WM/Hordes it's going to cause lot of commotion, as it does with any game, if anything people are a bit more shocked since its the first time to happen with this series of games.

Whenever a new GW product goes through it's revision period you get similar results but to probably less extent since people are so used to it Very Happy

by ar2 Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:05 pm

I for one, being new to the game and all, am quite upset about a lot of what I consider sweeping changes to a lot of models, and not only to those of my faction, Cygnar, but clear across all factions. I will continue playing and playtesting, and I will continue to play come MKII, not only because I really enjoy WM, but because I also think that we have a good bunch of stand up guys in our fledgiling community, who come to play for enjoyment and not for the Wins and Losses record. After watching one game and playing one game that had to be cut short I see the game still feels the same, it is just the loss of certain unique rules of certain models that I miss. Most where taken out where they could have been tweaked, and a lot needed no revision whatesoever, but where inexplicably removed. Soon I'll learn to say, oh well, and move on, but it should be easy to see why so many people on the forums seem to be very upset. Undeniably MKII models have lost a certain touch of individuality. But here's hoping! Smile

by **Ovich** Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:19 pm

The only thing I've seen so far that seemed a little annoying to me, was what seemed like a new method of choosing unit sizes.

From looking at the card, it seems like you have a choice between taking a minimum unit or a maximum unit, but with nothing in between.

Am I misinformed or confused about this issue Gabe? Because when I look at the cards I see " leader and 5 grunts " or "leader and 9 grunts" , which seems like there is no room for 7,8, or 9 man units.

I had been playing Dark Angels Ravenwing for a little while when GW redid the codex. All of a sudden I could either take a squad with 3 bikes (minimum) or I could take a squad with 6 bikes. There was no in between. The same thing happened with deathwing terminators.. I could take 5, for so many points and that's it, no option to add another terminator without taking a max squad of ten.

I found this ridiculously inflexible and flat out poor game development. Being able to choose your unit sizes may not mean much to alot of people but to me it adds flavor and options to the game. Any game that has more customizability is better in my book and this looks like we are losing the ability to customize.

Problem is, that it looks like such a given, that they probably will not change it no matter how much negative feedback they get about it.

by Kyle Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Yes you either buy min or max sized units now in WM/Hordes mk2.

by ar2 Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:04 pm

Ovich wrote:From looking at the card, it seems like you have a choice between taking a minimum unit or a maximum unit, but with nothing in between.

I found this ridiculously inflexible and flat out poor game development. Being able to choose your unit sizes may not mean much to alot of people but to me it adds flavor and options to the game. Any game that has more customizability is better in my book and this looks like we are losing the ability to customize.

Problem is, that it looks like such a given, that they probably will not change it no matter how much negative feedback they get about it.

I agree. The min/max unit thing is really silly but, with the new points system being what it is, there is no room for anything but min/max. There are many really good arguements on why the new points system is an utter failure, and at the core of the sweeping changes to many models' special rules, and the min/max unit rule, on the PP MKII forum that I suggest you take a look at. It is evident that in the implementation of such a small scale of numbers it becomes almost impossible to balance so many models with such a wide range of costs and so many disparate special rules and that something had to give. In my opinion, too much has been sacrificed to the "streamlining" beast.

by **Ovich** Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:32 am

Thanks for echoing my sentiments Art.

Also, Gabe,

I don't have a warmachine army, so I can only relate what I read in the new rules to my knowledge of playing opponents. I have not had a chance to play an opponent with the new rules. Does this mean my feedback shouldn't matter ? Or that I'm not qualified to comment on the new rules.

I can understand the concept that people shouldn't complain about or compliment the new rules until they've play tested. But some things can be fairly easily conceptualized even without playing.

Take the new rules on unit leaders for instance. Obviously destroying a units leader has long been a strategy for dealing with infantry/cavalry, neutering them so they couldn't charge and forcing them to take morale tests on lower leadership. Now that has been abolished by the field promotion rule. Obviously that's going to affect gameplay.

Now I should be able to comment intelligently on whether I like the way that works or doesn't without having to playtest it. I mean, obviously my opinion has more merit if I've played 50 games of MKII, but it doesn't mean that if I have not yet play tested, my opinion should be completely invalid. If you're a veteran gamer, which you are Gabe, you should already have pretty good idea of how this is going to affect your strategies and your list building. If you told me, " This is going to ensure that infantrymachine is still an enticing proposition" , I would pay attention to what you're saying simply on the fact that you're a veteran gamer, whether you've playtested yet or not.

by galonso Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:03 pm

You can help us playtest by proxying models. Your heavy and light beast can become any light or heavy jack. Your squad of Praetorians can be any infantry. You get the idea.

And.... if you have ever asked me about a list, if its not like one my lists (which I have played and know they work), I always say playtest it and see if it works for you. That's my answer for everything. I am not a fan of theory machine. Some times you can come up with ideas just by looking at the cards but you have to play it on the table to know for sure.

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