Star Trek / D&D / Games Workshop connections.

Just geekin it out here and was looking for some insight on the connections between the 3 above mentioned universes.

As we all know, the prototype for elves ( at least as wise, fair, tall, good at archery types, not Santa's kind) comes from Tolkien.

Now I've been told, although I don't know how true it is, that Gene Rodenberry had been influenced by the idea of Tolkien's elves when developing the idea of the Vulcans from the Startrek universe.

Now the other day, I was thinking... man, GW is such an unoriginal bullshit company when it comes to their fantasy stuff, we all know that. D&D had come up with the idea of High Elves and Dark Elves before GW, and clearly they ripped it off Gary Gygax...

But what stunned me was when I realized that GW basically ripped off Star Trek too. The Vulcans and the Romulans, are very clearly the model for the Eldar and the Dark Eldar. Here I was thinking that the 40k universe was somewhat original... I mean forget about the fact that Space Marines, could have come from Robert Heilen's Starship Troopers, Tyranids are clearly based off of the Aliens Franchise, and Orks are just Tolkien's original evil creatures set in space. But I always thought that even though Eldar were basically space elves, they were somewhat original. Then I watched some old episode of Star Trek where they explain that Romulans are a splinter group of Vulcans who didn't believe in the teachings of their founding philosopher, and so were basically exiled from Vulcan, and are basically "evil" Vulcans.

Leaves me thinking... Maybe it's part of the idea why everyone loves Chaos in both games so much.. The idea of the 4 chaos gods is one of the truly original pieces of the universe that GW did not rip off of anyone else.

What game has not ripped off an already established idea that some other company at some point has done?

It seems like when anyone has a flag to burn against something, they break down into similar dissections. You also get words like "inspired" being held in high regard while others will paint something as "ripped off", when essentially they are describing the same thing when it comes down to it.

Can pretty much take any media that comes out and analyze how it "ripped off" something from someone else.

Theres a difference between wholesale copying and ripping off an idea, to taking ideas and coming up with something unique and what one would call their own. Yes the 40k Universe has lot of borrowed ideas, but is their another universe that is like 40k at all before it came to be? Absolutely not, GW crafted their own unique universe, it had some borrowed ideas but at the same time they made it their own. The background material from the original 40k orks for example is absolutely nothing like fantasy orcs made famous in other settings, if you have ever read it, it was amazing stuff. Outside of the name ork and big green monsters, they were completely original takes on the beloved green skins, and still nothing like the original concepts laid out in the so called source material. GW did create something original, but some can't look past the superficial. Space Marines have more in common with ancient Roman history than Star Ship Troopers even, but it seems like any form of sci fi has it's roots somehow traced back to Starship Troopers.

D&D largely ripped off ideas from Tolkien on so many things, and the list of fantasy settings based on either of these two sources is just unimaginable. D&D is no more innocent than any other game or universe which took the ideas. Just because D&D took the ideas first?

As for the Star Trek thing.... no not really. The similarities are very thin at best and really more than anything the whole concept comes from the whole good/bad elves of fantasy lore and role playing games which had become quite common, and the original Warhammer Fantasy which inspired the space version. I really doubt Star Trek had much bearing at all to much of this truly

Ovich wrote:Then I watched some old episode of Star Trek where they explain that Romulans are a splinter group of Vulcans who didn't believe in the teachings of their founding philosopher, and so were basically exiled from Vulcan, and are basically "evil" Vulcans.

Yeah, they're just inverted. In the whole eldar/dark eldar scenario Romulans were the norm and the Vulcans had to ditch.

Kyle, I agree with your assertions that these days, there is a sort of "Gestalt" unconsciousness, almost a Jungian platform where everyone draws ideas from the same archetypes.

The 40k and Fantasy GW universes are 25 years old and as such, obviously have a very lush and original landscape by now, what with all the fiction in both game books and novels.

I'm just talking about the sparks of originality that make things stand out.

The tyranid race is NOT original, neither in fiction nor in appearance. I mean, yes, by now, the concept of the Tyranids and their background fiction is fleshed out and there is enough to differentiate them from the Alien franchise. H.R. Giger's original beastie, however, has been so clearly ripped off by GW that I'm surprised they haven't been sued. Didn't GW sue Bilizzard over the Zerg? or is that just a rumor? .

The copying of the nid thing came from when they put out Space Hulk as that game was heavily inspired by the movie with the motion tracker blips, ship interiors, etc.

Also original Nids were very different in design as they actually used guns and wore some armor, they become more bug like and less tech over the years. They had the human hybrids, the limos..... The race itself had little similarities to anything from Aliens or even Starship Troopers till the later incarnations where GW turned them into a more bug like horde race.

The whole rumor on Blizzard and GW was about the original Warcraft. The original Warcraft game was supposedly originally a Warhammer game being developed by Blizzard, and that GW pulled the license or something happened that the IP was removed from the project, so Blizzard just made a few changes cosmetically to the game and released it under the name Warcraft. Rumors about lawsuits and shit have been around for years though don't think any o it really happened.

One thing that GW made original is the way they depict Dwarves, the Steam-punk Dwarves are a GW creation.

Stephan, have you ever read the old Rogue Trader or any of the old interviews with Rick Priestley on what his inspiration were when he wrote the games or are you just pulling shit from your own ass?

Eldar are Elves in space. All their concepts come originally from the idea of transplanting the Fantasy characters to a science-fiction setting. They were never nor have ever been inspired by the Vulcans as far as I know (Rick Priestley never once mentioned Vulcans or Rodenberry as sources of inspiration... and he was very candid about his inspirations).
The poweful psychic abilities are there to match the fantasy elves' magic abilities, because orginally Psychic powers were simply 40K's Magic phase.
Also since when did Vulcan's hedonism and hubris destroy their race and give birth to a malevolent god?

Dark Eldar are a more sinister and vicious version of the original Eldar Pirates from Rogue Trader. When 2nd edition came around the Eldar became less pirate like and more established dying race. Some at GW were insterested in bringing back the pirate concept for 3rd edition, but were unwilling to do it to the now well established Eldar. The choice was made to once again draw from Warhammer Fanatsy and create Dark Eldar. However since the Eldar already were a very militant race the game writers at the time decided to focus on the more sadistic elements of the Dark Elves to go with the raiding priate concept.

Now, similarly the Orks were merely Orcs in space with some alterations.
The Squats were Dwarves in space with some alterations.
The vast majority of all the original main races of 40K were just transplants of the fantasy counterparts (Ogres - Orgyns, Halflings - Ratlings).
Many of the other races in the Rogue Trader were more NPCs than anything else.

Space Marines were a blend of Heinlein's Starship Troopers and the Knights Templar that already existed in Fantasy (as well as history). The concpet of altered superhumans is nothing new either, but as far as I can tell Priestley was the first to combine all of it together to give us the Space Marine.
The Imperial Guard were and in many ways still are simply the basic soldiers in varying degrees.

If you look at the original drawings of the Genestealers they bore absolutely no resemblence at all to Giger's works. It wasn't until sculpting the models for the Space Hulk game did the stealers end up resembling the Aliens. Even so Genestealers still slowly morph their spore infected host into other Genestealers. There are no face huggers or baby genestealer bursting out of a host's chest.

GW decided for 2nd edition that they wanted a classic sci-fi like alien race with the Tyranids (also originally heavily inspired by Heinlein's bugs from Starship Troopers). Because the Tyranids were so very limited in options at the time GW's people decided to make Genestealers a sub-part of that race as well to give players more variety. As a byproduct the Tyranids all were sculpted to share visual similarities to the Genestealers in order to help linking the race. It wasn't even until Tyranids got their Codex for 2nd edition that they gain the gargoyels, bio-vores, or Zonathropes. All still did exist several years before the cluster fuck film version of Starship Troopers and Starcraft.


Another thing... when the fuck did Gygax ever do anything original? He nearly got sued twice by Tolkein's family for copyright infingment. That's why his elves are shorter, halflings are thin with no big feet, Orc no longer came from evil warped elves, Goblins are a seperate race, and so on. As to inventing Dark Elves... I think the Norse as well as a few other cultures will have something to say about that. And as to the rest of his D&D world(s) there is little to nothing that was not borrowed or inspired by a work of fantasy or piece of human mythology. Just like any other fantasy writer or even fantasy game writer.

Tolkien himself did not invent most of what was in Lord of the Rings, it was mainly a hodge podge of different ideas taken from previous fantasy stories, ancient myths, folk lore legends, etc.

Stephen isn't enough that general speaking GW is a total rip off, that has absolute contempt for it's customers and is a fuck in the head company?

JerryB

Wow guys,

I'm glad to see I was able to provoke such deep thought about the matter.

and... yes Keith, I was pulling shit from my own ass. That's what postulating is. The difference is, you have more insight into Rick Priestly's mind then I do.

Here is the info though about the Vulcan's and Romulans that I think share some similarities to Eldar and Dark Eldar or Elves and Dark Elves

In about the 4th century AD, Vulcans emerged from their violent tendencies and civil wars under a philosopher named Surak, who advocated the suppressing of emotion in favor of logic. This period was known as the Great Awakening, and much of present-day Vulcan philosophy emerged from this period. Surak's views and lifestyle were not universally accepted by Vulcan society. One particular group of Vulcans who called themselves "those who march beneath the Raptor's wings" were so adamant in their opposition against Surak that it resulted in a nuclear war, of which Surak himself became a victim. After time the portion of Vulcan society who rejected Surak's teachings left the planet for the stars. This migration of Vulcan separatists would eventually become known as the Romulans. Knowledge of the common ancestry of Romulans and Vulcans would obscure into myth over the millenniums, and while some Vulcans had direct dealings with Romulans in the 22nd century, the common ancestry would not become widely known until the mid-23rd century.he Vulcans fought a hundred-year war with the Romulans starting circa 1944.

I also find it interesting that like the Eldar and Dark Eldar, the Vulcans are highly telepathic, while the Romulans are not.

I don't know, maybe your right Keith that Priestly didn't think of these guys at all, but let's face it, it's alot easier to say that you simply borrowed from your own previously created game, than from another universe owned by another franchise.

The thing is Preistley was and still is very candid about all the things which did inspire him. And so are the majority of GW's story writers.
Priestley has openly stated that writers like E.E. Doc Smith, Robert Heinlein, Philliph K. Dick, David Webber and several others (along with many, many movies) were sources of inspiration for many elements in 40K. Just like how many of their fantasy writing counterparts as well as human history and mythology helped to inspire much of Warhammer Fantasy.
For example Preistley as well as the original sculptor and artist for the Bloodthirster would look you right in the eyes and openly say that the Balrog was a major inspiration in that creature's design. But then in fantasy at the time where else would you look when you wanted inspiration for the look of an uber bad ass demon.
The sculptors of the Genestealer have stated that the Aliens were their inspiration for the final look and Heinlein's descriptions of his MI lead to the Space Marine power armor designs.
When someone is that candid I don't think they would leave shit out just to try and make themselves look better and more inventive.

Actually for the sake of Warhammer 40K Priestley stated that the more... peaceful?... science fiction wasn't of much use inspiration wise. Sci-fi horror and military action and concepts are so much better.

Now, the Eldar never had a civil war or a seperation like the one described for Vulcans (that's more the High Elves and Dark Elves of Fantasy and even that one came about over a dispute in rulership not philosophical concepts).
The seperation (as it was written in 3rd ed. since the Dark Eldar did not exist until then) came after the Eldar damn near destroyed themselves with their own lusts, desires, and hubris in the belief that they could control and manipulate the universe like the Old Ones before them. Couple that with incredible psychic abilities and BOOM!
The Eldar learned a painful lesson and now just limp painfully through the end of their existence (yet while still maintaining a haughty arrogance for lesser species... i.e. every species but Eldar) while the Dark Eldar are the ones who embraced the catacylsim and still embrace their hedonistic and sadistic pleasures falling to the very god they helped create.

And as I already said the Dark Eldar were part of an attempt to bring back the more violent raider aspect that Eldar had in the beginning without altering the Eldar army or uneccesarily adding another dimension to it. Essentially Dark Elves in space, but less miliaristic and more sadistic.
Granted I think they never should have made the Dark Eldar as you can still caputre some of the pirate raider elements with certain army designs anyways... and Eldar are already dark enough as it is in my opinion (seeing as they were a blend of the High Elves and Dark Elves to begin with).
A psychotic group of hedonistic sociopaths that feel that the very hubris which destroyed their society and created Slaanesh is all good really was not neccessary at all. But then it was a new edition of the game and GW felt it needed to add something new along with the new system.

I'm far happier with the continued development of the Necrons and the addition of the Tau (as frustrating and over powered that both may seem at times, but really what army isn't at times?) than the Dark Eldar.

And the Orks name me any other race that are as comical and as they are bruteish... I mean shit look at what they do to the stormboys to get a laugh. They fuck up the Rokkits the ground forces can get a laugh. Look at the Shokkattack gun, look the old Squid-Aplaut that would fire bees that would kill anyone under the blast marker that had skin showing. So IG, old Eldar, Space marine captain without helmet, orks and nids where FUCKED!!!! good i loved that gun. (keith i know your happy that it and the old plusa rokkit is gone, but my eschers and the 3 handflamers are not) The best part was it would move around the battle in a random movement. Or what about the madboys and there 4 pages of rules!!!! I can name atlest 10 more odd ork weapons that are from Er We GO!!! the 300 page ork book of pure orkness....the good old days may never return but they where good days. This goes along wtih the two 300 page chaos books.....600 pages of chaos!!!!!

And tell me what about Chaos Deamon Machines of Epic!!!! where did they come...hell i could pull around 10 of them with out even looking at the book.
here is a few to back up that answer: Cannon Of Khorne, Tower of Skulls, Sliver Tower, Doomwheel( not the ratmen's thing), Subjecator (think that is how you spell it) BaneLord of Khorne, Fellsword just to name a few cuh....

Or what about the Skaven???????

or the fact that they created steampunk

Or how about the Harlequins, and i mean their whole old list not their squad now.....i mean the WHOLE army list which i still have some where..

What about the good old Mole Transport!!!!!! shit that was crazy!!!!

or what about their car combat table top game which inspired the makers of Twisted Metal ( 1,2: world tour, head one, Black) some of the best games of all time!!! Ok 2 and 3 sucked but they were not made the main guys....

when i get some sleep i will rant more!!!!!!

I think everybody is pretty in much in agreement the GW has no originality and simple steals content for the games.

JerryB

Did you ever think it was coincidence? All in all the 40k universe is very original. I think your grasping at straws or your dislike of GW has aided in your concoction of this theory. The Nurgle symbol is bases on the biohazard symbol,the Imperial Guard are based on the German Wermacht and Soviet Russia. I suppose we can argue that D&D stole from Lord of the Rings and Mythology as well. The Monkey troops in AT-43 were stolen from Charlton Heston and his planet of the Apes movie and FoW...dont get me started on them. The stole everything from history. All of this stuff was inspiration for these games and I think GW(as evilas they are) put together a fantastic universe and story line. Hell as much as we all complain we still buy and play with their shit.

40K itself is extremely original setting, their is nothing like it and the fluff behind it is pretty impressive. No one before them really tried so well to blend Fantasy themes into the sci fi setting. Warhammer Fantasy on the other hand was their most unoriginal universe they originally created though they have put a lot into it to make it their own, similar to how Blizzard took the generic Warcraft world and made it into something their own..... though they do not have much originality in anything as it seems like every single thing Blizzard does is borrowed.

What about the good old Mole Transport!!!!!! shit that was crazy!!!!

or what about their car combat table top game which inspired the makers of Twisted Metal ( 1,2: world tour, head one, Black) some of the best games of all time!!! Ok 2 and 3 sucked but they were not made the main guys....

when i get some sleep i will rant more!!!!!!

Car combat table top game - did you never see Steve Jackson Games Car Wars? That first came out in 1980...

Mole Transport I know I've seen in Michael Moorcock's alternative world books. The Oswald Bastable series has them for certain.

when did those books come out?????

also it inspired Krain's transports in TMNT!!!!!

The first bastable book by Moorcock was 1971, and the moles are in 'The Land Leviathan' which was 1974.

never read it but will look into...
i would also like to say opps!!! but i do miss the mole

Come over to the dark side and play Epic.... I have moles (and mole mortars) for my squats....

Moorcock can be an acquired taste, though Bastable and the Elric series is probably the easiest to get into. The Cornelius books and his Pyat books are definately for a true fan.

i do play epic...lol

in fact i am currently tring to build a 40k scale version of the Robots to use them in my IG.

This was never meant to be an anti- GW thread... I think that's just Jerry chiming in...

I was just pointing out how interesting it was that Romulans and Vulcans seem like space elves. So then I thought.. .well, there's another couple of races that are space elves.. Dark Eldar and Eldar... But since Rodenberry's universe was around before 40k... I just postulated whether the idea was borrow..... that's all.

But I'm glad so many people chimed in..

Let your geek flag wave baby.. !!

There is nothing new under the sun. Everything is derivative. And that's okay.

Hey Dakai, I've never played Epic but if you're talking about the same robots that used to be available during the rogue trader days, they're already 40k scale and I'm sure you can find some on EBAY. Their programming rules are in the original red warhammer compendium. (with ultramarines on the cover) I don't have a scanner but I can make some photocopies if you want.