Is this O&G Armylist cheesy?

This was my usual 2000 pt list over the summer, and I enjoyed it a lot. The wyvern, giant and two units of boarboys on the flank are pretty scary and can usually deal with anything in their way. The only thing that nags me is whether anyone feels that the wyvern and giant in the same armylist is cheesy?

Orc Great Shaman (lv. 4)
Best Boss 'At, Waagh! Paint. Wyvern.

Black Orc Big Boss (General)
Best Basha, enchanted shield, heavy armour. Boar.

Black Orc Battlestandard Bearer
Armed to da Teef, heavy armour. Boar

Night Goblin Shaman (lv. 2)
2 Magic Mushrooms, Dispel Scroll.

22 Orc boyz
Choppa, light armour, shield. Full command.

23 Orc boyz
Choppa, light armour, shield. Full command.

5 Wolf riders
Spears, light armour. Musician.

5 Wolf riders
Spears, light armour. Musician.

Wolf Chariot

5 Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Spears, shields. Musician.

5 Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Spears, shields. Musician.

2 Spear Chukkas

Giant

Doom Diver

Total: 2000 pts.

A tough list, but not cheezy

No O&G list is cheesy, animosity makes sure of that. Never did like the wyvern, 2 giants is where is at

I got back and forth about it, it's a tough list for sure and I'm trying to decide about the cheese factor or not.

I know that 2 Giants is pretty cheesed up, so I'm not too sure yet.

Having played against your list several times...below are my thoughts...

Diosamblet wrote:This was my usual 2000 pt list over the summer, and I enjoyed it a lot. The wyvern, giant and two units of boar boys on the flank are pretty scary and can usually deal with anything in their way. The only thing that nags me is whether anyone feels that the wyvern and giant in the same armylist is cheesy?

Orc Great Shaman (lv. 4)
Best Boss 'At, Waagh! Paint. Wyvern.

Wasn't your Shaman a Savage Orc? I recall forcing him into my Phoenix Guard in our RTT match because of his Frenzy. If the Shaman is a Savage Orc, it definitely makes the Wyvern more difficult for you to control. If not, it's a little annoying, but not overly so.

Diosamblet wrote:Black Orc Big Boss (General)
Best Basha, enchanted shield, heavy armour. Boar.

Black Orc Battlestandard Bearer
Armed to da Teef, heavy armour. Boar

Night Goblin Shaman (lv. 2)
2 Magic Mushrooms, Dispel Scroll.

Solid hero choices...nothing too major. The Lvl 2 Shaman, when combined with the Lvl 4 Orc Shaman gives you a lot of power dice, but so many armies use a lot of magic these days that it doesn't bother me much anymore.

Diosamblet wrote:22 Orc boyz
Choppa, light armour, shield. Full command.

23 Orc boyz
Choppa, light armour, shield. Full command.

Standard O&G solid infantry formations, nothing too major and as mentioned earlier, animosity might get them either stuck or beat up by the Black Orc Boss if he's in the units.

Diosamblet wrote:5 Wolf riders
Spears, light armour. Musician.

5 Wolf riders
Spears, light armour. Musician.

Good flanking force, but easy to defeat. With low leadership, they have issues if they get shot, or if facing someone that causes fear.

Diosamblet wrote:Wolf Chariot

5 Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Spears, shields. Musician.

5 Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Spears, shields. Musician.

A good flanking force, but not over the top. With the Boar Boyz being Savage and subject to Frenzy...it's not too incredibly difficult to lead them around the table into non-beneficial positions for you. The Wolf Chariot is only T4 with a 5+ save, which makes it easy to kill, despite it's exceptional speed.

Diosamblet wrote:2 Spear Chukkas

Giant

Doom Diver

Total: 2000 pts.

The Doom Diver is the unit that annoyed me the most. Couldn't care that much about your Chukkas because you missed more often than you hit and the Giant is easy pickin's for much of my army (especially my RBTs), but the Doom Diver did significant damage to my army in several of our games.

All in all, a relatively balanced O&G list. Yes, you have 2 large targets and one flies, but it's just a Wyvern and can be killed relatively easily. Plus you have a non-combat character on it, so if you get stuck in combat your hoping the Wyvern will do most of the damage (unlikely with only 3 attacks). The giant at T5 with no armor isn't all that bad. T5 used to mean something, but with so many armies having S5, or S6 attacks as a matter of course, he'll often die before doing any real damage...especially if you face Lizardmen with a lot of skinks (Giants love poison!). Your animosity tests and Frenzied units give you just enough disadvantages that this list actually looks like it'd might be more challenging to use than to oppose. Anytime you're up in the DC area...let me know...we can test it out!

Just curious, but if you have to ask "is this cheesy?" doesn't that infer that you yourself think it is at least a little cheesy?

Yeah - I recall Matt trashing my Chaos Knight unit with that Doom Diver in our last match.

Gotta agree with Luis that O&G are low enough on the power curve right now that they can't really be considered cheesy no matter what you bring.

Well....... maybe the 2 Giant, 9 Chariot list Luis ran on me once - but other than that.......

dork_jedi wrote:Just curious, but if you have to ask "is this cheesy?" doesn't that infer that you yourself think it is at least a little cheesy?

Yeah, I sometimes feel the giant AND wyvern is a bit too much. It depends on the army I face: some have a hard time dealing with the wyvern (brettonians in particular), while others (Empire, Elves) aren't too worried. At the same time as Bill said O&G are pretty behind the power curve, so they have to compensate somehow. As long as people don't think of me as a cheesy player for using that list, I won't mind playing it.

Sam - You're right, sometimes the shaman is frenzied, sometimes not. It's a 5 pt difference if I recall correctly. Also I usually play with 2 Dispel Scrolls and a boar chariot, not a wolf chariot, but that's the only list I have on my laptop. I still regret getting beaten so handily in that last RTT. Sending you to DC defeated was to be our farewell present haha. How are Chris' DE coming along? Still giving High Elves trouble?

ShadowMaster wrote:Yeah - I recall Matt trashing my Chaos Knight unit with that Doom Diver in our last match.

Gotta agree with Luis that O&G are low enough on the power curve right now that they can't really be considered cheesy no matter what you bring.

Well....... maybe the 2 Giant, 9 Chariot list Luis ran on me once - but other than that.......

Man, i forgot how fun that chariot/Giant list was it was a BIT broken...

I became so frustated with my O&G after failing like 11 animosity rolls in one battle against Matt that i shelved them and started fishing arround for other armies.

O&G are fun, but i dont think they are competitive with the new monster armies out there.

Everyone is too ancy to call cheese. Just play what you like.

The Eldar Guy wrote:Everyone is too ancy to call cheese. Just play what you like.

Seer Council is soo cheesy and so are the new Dark Elves.

Ha, play whatever you like coming from Seer council Eldar with new Eldrad combo?

I think why Matt wants to ask about the cheesy factor is because he wants someone to say "I got beat by matt" NOT "I got beat by a cheesy army."

scurrdi wrote: I think why Matt wants to ask about the cheesy factor is because he wants someone to say "I got beat by matt" NOT "I got beat by a cheesy army."

Couldn't have said it better, Dan.

Wow, I've never seen anyone claim an O&G army was cheesy with a straight face.

Kyle wrote:Wow, I've never seen anyone claim an O&G army was cheesy with a straight face.

Apparently you havent heard of the Fanatic catapult.

I don't think it's a cheezy army. It's a tough one to face no doubt, but not overpowered. There's a good mix everything in there, so it's generally balanced.

Matt, you know I've played this list several times now with my woodelves, Empire and V.C's . So I think I'm pretty qualified to answer the question.

scurrdi wrote:Ha, play whatever you like coming from Seer council Eldar with new Eldrad combo? "

The eldrad+Yriel combo is even -less- optimal than the bike one, but w/e, its a convo for another thread; namely "I HATE the eldar seer council."

This is true, but either way, back to the original question.

Matt, go for it!

dork_jedi wrote:Just curious, but if you have to ask "is this cheesy?" doesn't that infer that you yourself think it is at least a little cheesy?

He did mention that he thought it was balanced, except for the Wyvern/Giant combo...that's the part that was bugging him...sounds like he's just trying to get a pulse...

Diosamblet wrote:Yeah, I sometimes feel the giant AND wyvern is a bit too much. It depends on the army I face: some have a hard time dealing with the wyvern (brettonians in particular), while others (Empire, Elves) aren't too worried. At the same time as Bill said O&G are pretty behind the power curve, so they have to compensate somehow. As long as people don't think of me as a cheesy player for using that list, I won't mind playing it.

I think Brets should be able to handle both the giant and the wyvern pretty easily...with units of Pegasus Knights you can out-maneuver the wyvern and with units like Grail Knights, you can munch through the Giant...does require average to slightly above average rolling to do it quickly, but it can be done.

Diosamblet wrote:Sam - You're right, sometimes the shaman is frenzied, sometimes not. It's a 5 pt difference if I recall correctly. Also I usually play with 2 Dispel Scrolls and a boar chariot, not a wolf chariot, but that's the only list I have on my laptop. I still regret getting beaten so handily in that last RTT. Sending you to DC defeated was to be our farewell present haha. How are Chris' DE coming along? Still giving High Elves trouble?

Got it with the Shaman...always wondered why you'd take a Shaman that can be forced to charge someone, though...maybe I'm too much of an Elf player, but my mages never, ever get into combat unless I have absolutely no choice. Sorry I couldn't give you the glorious victory you wanted in the last RTT...the Star Dragon list was a bit over the top, but I had to at least once while I was down there...Just remember, if anyone is up in the DC area...I'm always up for a rematch.

The Eldar Guy wrote:Everyone is too antsy to call cheese. Just play what you like.

'Tis true...many people scream cheese because an army is competitive, or because it's a certain type of army. Everyone called cheese when the High Elves new book first came out and now, the highest a High Elf player has placed in the last 4 GTs is 21st...the new cheesy/power armies are VC and Daemons. Cheese comes down to the player, not his list...So, bring your Wyvern/2 Giant/Fanatic catapult/Doom Diver/Chariot list of doom and have a good time...Just don't be a jerk as you're cleaning the floor with someone, or while they're cleaning the floor with your "uber" list.

lordfairfax2001 wrote:I think Brets should be able to handle both the giant and the wyvern pretty easily...with units of Pegasus Knights you can out-maneuver the wyvern and with units like Grail Knights, you can munch through the Giant...does require average to slightly above average rolling to do it quickly, but it can be done.

Not sure what kind of out-maneuvering you have in mind, so could you explain in more detail?

About the frenzied wyvern: for 5 pts. I get an extra attack on both the wyvern and rider, so that it can actually hurt stuff. You were the first one to really make me pay for the forced-charge-if-within-range-and-LOS drawback of frenzy. I see how it might seem ludicrous to you as a HE player, but consider that I AM playing O&G, so risk and a bit of unpredictability is part of the army. In the end, the biggest reason for making him frenzied is that I have more fun with the model that way.

Also, a T5 W3 5+ ward orc shaman on a wyvern (so missile fire gets randomized) is a lot more protected than your T3 elf wizard running on his own.

Plus he's an Orc, they don't believe in magic, they just believe in bashing things!!

Diosamblet wrote:Not sure what kind of out-maneuvering you have in mind, so could you explain in more detail?

Well, the Pegasus Knights move 20" just like the Wyvern, but unlike the Wyvern have 360 degree LoS...that means they should be able to get out of the charge arc and have a good chance of staying within 20" to get their charge off...

Diosamblet wrote:About the frenzied wyvern: for 5 pts. I get an extra attack on both the wyvern and rider, so that it can actually hurt stuff. You were the first one to really make me pay for the forced-charge-if-within-range-and-LOS drawback of frenzy. I see how it might seem ludicrous to you as a HE player, but consider that I AM playing O&G, so risk and a bit of unpredictability is part of the army. In the end, the biggest reason for making him frenzied is that I have more fun with the model that way.

True, and most other armies don't get to go before you do when you charge...I played O&G for a while and got too tired of the complete randomness. I guess I'm just too much of a HE player to play O&G.

Diosamblet wrote:Also, a T5 W3 5+ ward orc shaman on a wyvern (so missile fire gets randomized) is a lot more protected than your T3 elf wizard running on his own.

That's true...as I found out today...I hate Flamers...5D6 shots for a 5 man unit...23 shots BS4, S4 shots equals dead HE mage.

Oh, and Chris never even started a DE army...he's decided to wait for the new Lizardmen book and will be using them. DE are still giving me a problem, though...I'm 3-7 against them since returning to DC.

Im gonna do a spear chukka gun line.

DE are still giving me a problem, though...I'm 3-7 against them since returning to DC.

They are tough arent they? I only played a proxy game against Matt and was flabbergasted by the sheer amount of magical pain they can dish out. It's brutal. I beat Matt only because he was trying them out for the first time and didn't know exactly what they can do. I'd hate to see them in the hands of someone who's been playing with them for a long time.

Yeah, the DE are pretty potent. Can't wait to see them actually played though. (or face off against them!)