Rules Question for the Forum...please help!

[Vycem]

Hello everyone,

I need your opinion on something. For a while now I've been having a lot of trouble reconciling the Necron's WBB rule with sweeping advance, since someone told me that sweeping advance negates WBB. I've tried asking GW, but they have yet to respond to my rules query email. I've been reading a lot of back and forth on this on the web, and to play it safe last tournament I took it so that if a model got killed I could WBB, but if I got killed via sweeping advance I was removed off the table. As those of you who played me last tournament remember, this was a complete wreck for my army and it's awesome iniative 2.

Then I ran into this very interesting discussion on http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2009/02/necron-wbb-and-sweeping-advance.html

"Necron WBB and Sweeping Advance

Time to finish this analysis, continued from this thread and the comments:

Hopefully I can explain this properly and everyone will get it.

Let's look at the two relevant rules, in italics below, then I'll give my summary and we'll be done with it.

Remember that Codex trumps Rulebooks in a conflict, although in this case there is no conflict, as we shall see...

Necron WBB Rule:

Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on it's side to show it's damaged.

Now let's skip all the rest of the rule, down to the exceptions part--when do you NOT get WBB?

A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armor save or any weapon who strength is twice the Toughness of the Necron concerned.

Now to the main 40k rules...

Sweeping Advances, BBB:

If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. [Skip Fluff Text.] Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over.

A few other rules to quote and then we'll be done.

Death or Glory:

If the attack fails to stop the vehicle, then the tank shock continues as normal, except that the brave glory seeker is crushed by the vehicle grinding over him - the model is removed, regardless of Wounds, saves (invulnerable or not), or any other clever way of staying alive they can think of.

I note that the old Necron FAQ said you could not get back up if you were run over by a tank, but that ruling was removed from the new Necron FAQ. For completeness sake, I included the new tank-shock rules and what happens when you get dropped by said tank to give us another rule to look at.

My commentary:

The Death and Glory rule is overridden by the Necron WBB rule, as it is going to be 'otherwise removed as a casualty'. Note that the model is of course still dead.

During a sweeping advance, you are 'destroyed' then 'removed immediately'. Isn't destroyed 'otherwise removed as a casualty'? Which game are YOU playing, if 'destroyed' isn't 'removed as a casualty'? It does say 'removed immediately', doesn't it?

Sadly, I am sure people will disagree with the rules--and that's fine. Do you really think it's some huge benefit to get back up? Necrons have no AP1 weapons other than the Monolith, imagine running a army that can't reliably stop vehicles. Now play a real 5th edition list, and note how it's not hard to crush a Necron army even if they can get back up from a sweeping advance.

Stop being a bunch of pussies already. They still have to qualify to get back up you know, and they don't qualify...they are dead.

Instead of complaining about the Necron rules, and browbeating opponents into not being able to play their army--play fairly, and learn how to beat the Necrons.

It's quite sad how many people think they are awesome when they are a ridiculously one-dimensional army.

Just because they aren't very fun for YOU to play against is also not a reason for the Necron player to be unable to use his rules.

Less excuses, more tactics k?

Thanks."


Some further discussion on the thread:

"Chumbalaya said...

I had always thought that the Sweeping Advance and Tank Shock rules were specifically referring to WBB when they said it overrides any special rule for keeping them alive.

Interesting thoughts though, and it certainly would make Necrons more playable.
Sunday, February 22, 2009
Stelek said...

You've got it in reverse, Chumbalaya.

The main rulebook says you are dead, right? No matter what?

What that rule is referring to are things like Bionics...that's a way to 'stay alive' and you cannot use it.

Necrons do satisfy the requirements of the rules, in that they do indeed 'die'.

Unlike Bionics which works in the current turn (so your model never actually dies but postpones it with a chance to get back up immediately, i.e. while being swept or run over--which is very messy in the game system and is overridden by the language of the main rules), the Necron WBB rule does not prevent death nor does it keep you alive.

You DO die. You DO satisfy the needs of both rules.

Dead, and coming back NEXT turn.

'Treated as battlefield debris', yes? Totally just a marker and has NO impact on gameplay.

Unlike bionics equipped characters, who are NOT 'debris' and DO affect gameplay.

I hope this distinction is clear enough for everyone.
Sunday, February 22, 2009 "


What does the local community think? Do I get to stand back up from WBB or not?

[The Eldar Guy]

Problem is it states that they are "Removed Immediately." that phrase alone treats it separately in terms of how you handle casualties. If you don't, you run into more problems.

Simplest example: If you are swept in a combat and it is possible to retain your WBB roll you may provoke an illegal action when making your WBB.

- Some models will be within 1" of enemy models.

[Vycem]

Problem is it states that they are "Removed Immediately." that phrase alone treats it separately in terms of how you handle casualties. If you don't, you run into more problems.

Simplest example: If you are swept in a combat and it is possible to retain your WBB roll you may provoke an illegal action when making your WBB.

- Some models will be within 1" of enemy models.

From the rulebook: "The repaired Necron will immediately be placed in coherency with the closest unit of the same type." [...] "If the nearest unit is in close combat then the repaired Necron may be placed in combat with any of its opponents as long as it maintains coherency. It may not contact a new enemy unit and does not count as charging."

In other words, no, they won't be within 1" of enemy models unless those models are in assault with the squad they are now a part of.

Also from the rulebook: "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only."

Lastly, the Necron book lists only one thing other than insta-kill hits and power weapons as overriding WBB:
"Necrons destroyed after due to a failed 'Death or Glory' attack may not be repaired by any means."

[The Eldar Guy]

The first part:
Swept necrons are no longer in combat. The necrons cannot start a new combat on their WBB, they can only rejoin ongoing ones. The damaged necrons will still be within 1" of the enemy on their WBB roll, and be forced to be removed from the table.

Second: Yes, Damaged necrons. After they make their WBB roll however- they follow all normal defined game rules.

[Vycem]

The first part:
Swept necrons are no longer in combat. The necrons cannot start a new combat on their WBB, they can only rejoin ongoing ones. The damaged necrons will still be within 1" of the enemy on their WBB roll, and be forced to be removed from the table.

Second: Yes, Damaged necrons. After they make their WBB roll however- they follow all normal defined game rules.

But there's no rule that the enemy cannot be within 1" when I make the WBB rule. That's why I quoted the "They are debris only". The necrons *CAN* roll WBB even if the enemy models are right on top of them.

"The Necrons are placed in coherency with the closest unit of the same type." That means two things: Either a unit NOT in HtH, or a unit in Hth. Not in assault: The necrons go to whatever free space in the squad that's away from the enemy. If the unit is in assault, they are now part of that assault as well.

For what you say to be true, you would have to have enough units to fully encircle the closest squad more than 2" deep with no nearby tomb spyders and no other squads in range. In that case, what you're saying is true.

[The Eldar Guy]

I see, the question is not toward whether the swept necrons get a WBB but the necrons that died in the assault? As the necrons that die in the assault are considered "debris."

[Vycem]

I see, the question is not toward whether the swept necrons get a WBB but the necrons that died in the assault? As the necrons that die in the assault are considered "debris."

Actually, no, see my original post about that debate. It's easy to note that models killed in assault get WBB. I never questioned that. The question is, do models caught in sweeping advance get WBB?

From the Necron codex:

"Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wound, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."

From the rulebook's info on sweeping advance:

"The falling back unit is destroyed." Followed a bit after by "The destroyed unis is removed immediately."

Rulebook: Unit is destroyed and removed.

Necron codex: "... would otherwise be removed as a casualty."

What I'm saying is, WBB says when you have to remove a model as a casualty, you don't. The model is dead debris and then the next turn roll for WBB.

[WC_Brian]

Basically it will be changed to Feel No Pain in the next codex and it'll be played the same way it already is now. If you don't like how the rules of the game work then keep your Necrons out of hth. Sure it sucks that Necrons blow in 5th but that doesn't mean the race should get exceptions to rules. It's like asking the entire world to act like their is a clause in the codex that simply isn't there. You will get a new codex eventually, until then borrow an army or build a new Necron list that doesn't care about the problems you are having with HtH. For instance try to hide your dudes behind 3 grounded Monoliths.

I'm not sure how long you have played so a little history about Necrons. People dislike Necrons because their rules are annoying. They have too many unnecessary and complex rules(like WBB) that create an almost endless series of questions that are difficult to answer in the middle of a game(especially a tournament game). On top of that many Necron players have attempted and often succeeded to exploit these many grey areas in their codex rules. You expect your opponent to know the rules and when you find out later that they intentionally misled you it creates alot of bad blood. So don't take it personally, there was just alot of fallout from a very poorly written codex.

[Vycem]

You misunderstand, I wasn't asking for some sort of special clause or exception, it's actually a lot of questions raised around the online Necron community.

But no prob. I actually should've posted earlier - I got tired of the ambiguity and wrote to GW with all my questions. It took them a couple of weeks and some back and forth, but they clarified it.

Basically, if the Necron fell during combat, he gets WBB. If he was alive but was then caught in sweeping advance, he gets wiped out.

I don't take it personally, I know the army blows chunks right now (and honestly, the hiding behind 3 monoliths thing is awful. That gives me nothing to actually hit my opponent with and that's begging for a deep strike or outflank move to wipe out one squad at a time...at least until phase out wipes me out and my nice pristine 'liths). But hey, they're what I have painted right now, I'll assemble something more competitive for other tournaments and keep toying with this.

[WC_Brian]

I know a very good Necron player who plays that and it is the only thing he can consistently win with in 5th edition. He has placed very high with it. Aggro armies cannot beat you. You cannot get outflanked when you are in the middle of the board. What Deep Strike that can hurt your 39 Warriors and Deceiver? If it was that bad you can just turn the Monoliths around and teleport the warriors to the other side. I don't think you have thought it through. You can't really get phased unless Nob Bikers turns out to be a bad matchup(I didn't ask him it it was).

[Vycem]

"Aggro armies cannot beat you."

???? Sorry, I don't speak MMO, what are you trying to say with this?

"If it was that bad you can just turn the Monoliths around and teleport the warriors to the other side."

What, does his opponents not know about engaging multiple CC units at once? Necron warriors are not fearless, any dedicated CC unit, hell anything with power weapons, and he's taking massive leadership modifiers, and the moment that happens his squad goes bye bye before he can teleport anywhere.

And the Deceiver + Monolith...thanks to line of sight rules, they just scream "shoot me" with all the dedicated antitank weapons their opponent SHOULD have brought to the table in a take-all-comers list. It's no different than playing any other army that only brought two tanks to the table.

Not to mention that at the end of the day, Necrons are a shooty army. The deceiver is one very expensive target that crawls along the battlefield. Even if an opponent didn't bring any heavy weaponry for some reason, it's not that hard to maneuver around it since it's so slow. Do me a favor next time you talk to your buddies opponents, tell them this from me:

"Why the hell are you paying any attention to the monolith and Deceiver? Focus on the warriors!"

This applies even if your buddy crams two Monoliths in there.

Let me run down facts on Necrons as I see them, and please contradict me:

1. Necrons are neither stubborn nor fearless, and have initiative 2. CC against anything that is prepared for assault will wipe out a squad BEFORE they can teleport or roll WBB.

2. Necrons have no reliable anti-tank. Oh yeah, they can glance on 6s, woo. Ignoring for a second that cover/smoke gives vehicles a 50% chance to ignore that lucky 6, glancing hits have a 50% chance of not stopping a vehicle. What can Necrons do against mechanized armies? Spam heavy destroyers? Heavy destroyers are nice up to a point, but I can't understand why their weapon is not AP1, but hey, they're good against medium armor!

3. Necrons have no melta equivalent. This is an expansion on #2, because H.Destroyers are lame against heavy armor. Tell me what recipe your friend has for Land Raiders, other than maybe send a Necron lord to get all up on its face (and don't give me the Deceiver, because if your buddy's opponents let him catch up to a land raider, they deserve to lose to a Gretchin army).

4. Necrons have no real CC unit. Not really. Necron lords are our best bet, followed by Tomb Spyders (though those are more of a tarpit than anything else). Pariahs are overcosted and too low initiative, Wraiths are constrained by small squad caps and lack of power weapons, and Flayed Ones are only pretend assault units.

Your buddy only wins with Necrons? Woo. Tell him to play at Sunshine next time we have a tournament. Maybe he'll have better luck against the seer council armies, or the melta/plasma spamming mechanized Death Guard (who, by the way, are resilient in ways Necrons can only dream of). Hey, who knows, maybe I haven't thought it through as you say, right? Could all just be a personal problem.

Though I have to wonder about one teeeny, weeny thing...how come there are never any Necron players at the top tournament tables? I follow the GTs (well, up until they cancelled them) and a bunch of the Independent ones, and from the results I see, ever since 5th ed hit I've yet to see Necrons place highly.

But I repeat, tell your buddy to come by Sunshine and show our veterans what for. Defent Necron honor! I sure as well will cheer him up.

I love Necrons, they're a great army. And I *do* win games (I almost beat one Death Guard army two weeks ago... would've won but goddamn game went to turn 6 and he got two kill points. Bah!) I'm just saying that when it comes to getting competitive and putting them up against a strong build, it's like bringing a plastic spork against a guy with a knife. Sure, with skill and a bit of luck I can put your eye out, but he's the one equipped to really hurt me.

[razorramon31]

I have a couple of other rules questions and /or issues I want to bring up

1) Do we as a group use and/or allow Imperial Armor Rules? There is already a 5th edition update out. I was wondering if we allow Forge World rules in our games. And to add to that question if we do allow those rules, are they allowed during tournament play.

Basically the update (which if anyone needs it let me know I have it on pdf) jst updates vehicles to 5th edition, obviously there are alot of vehicles that forgeworld makes that are not made by GW although GW has given them exclusive right to make them and therefore are lega models, as such statistics and rules for such vehicles are available aswell.


2) I may have misunderstood the rules or when I was playing against the Eldar but as we all know there has been a rise of the jetbikes (terminator 3 parody) of rthe Eldar. I have aswell as others come across the frustration as you have to fight off a jet bike squadron.
I would really like an explanation as to why jetbikes are getting a 3= Invulnerable save. I understand the regular 3+ save but why are they getting an invulnerable? I looked all over the rules and the only things i could find is that now in 5th edition all bikes (including jet) get a 3+ cover save (not invulnerable) when they "turbo boost" and that if it is a Warlock on the bike he does have Rune Armor which would be a 4+ invulnerable.
That being said, a space marine army with power weapons should be able to mop the floor with jet bikes due to the fact that as lon as they make their wound roll it would be death as they do not have an invulnerable save.
However I may have missed something and would like an explanation if I am wrong.

[Vycem]

These are good questions, I recommend you spawn them off to their own post.

For #1, I think that for friendly play if you ask your opponent you should be fine. For Tournament play, you'd have to ask whoever is organizing the tournament, since different people organize them and they have their own feel.

For #2...Ask Chris (The Eldar Guy), he's our best Eldar player so I'm sure he can explain the breakdown. All I know is that I've seen him played (faced him twice!) and the math and rolling sure looks like a pain in the ass to keep up with. Offhand, my guess is:
"...Warlock on the bike he does have Rune Armor which would be a 4+ invulnerable."
Well, seeing as how they're all Warlocks except for one Farseer and one Autarch (sometimes), all he has to do is keep allocating the power weapon hits to the Warlocks and he's golden.

I have a couple of other rules questions and /or issues I want to bring up

1) Do we as a group use and/or allow Imperial Armor Rules? There is already a 5th edition update out. I was wondering if we allow Forge World rules in our games. And to add to that question if we do allow those rules, are they allowed during tournament play.

Basically the update (which if anyone needs it let me know I have it on pdf) jst updates vehicles to 5th edition, obviously there are alot of vehicles that forgeworld makes that are not made by GW although GW has given them exclusive right to make them and therefore are lega models, as such statistics and rules for such vehicles are available aswell.


2) I may have misunderstood the rules or when I was playing against the Eldar but as we all know there has been a rise of the jetbikes (terminator 3 parody) of rthe Eldar. I have aswell as others come across the frustration as you have to fight off a jet bike squadron.
I would really like an explanation as to why jetbikes are getting a 3= Invulnerable save. I understand the regular 3+ save but why are they getting an invulnerable? I looked all over the rules and the only things i could find is that now in 5th edition all bikes (including jet) get a 3+ cover save (not invulnerable) when they "turbo boost" and that if it is a Warlock on the bike he does have Rune Armor which would be a 4+ invulnerable.
That being said, a space marine army with power weapons should be able to mop the floor with jet bikes due to the fact that as lon as they make their wound roll it would be death as they do not have an invulnerable save.
However I may have missed something and would like an explanation if I am wrong.

[razorramon31]

Sorry, I though this was a post for all general questions!!!! LOL!!!

[The Eldar Guy]

I'll just up and answer #2 here-

Warlocks and the farseers have a 4+ invulnerable save basic, with a 3+ save on a jetbike.

Autarch HQs have a forcefield for a 4+ invulnerable and a 3+ regular

[Autarch (CM)]

I'll just up and answer #2 here-

Warlocks and the farseers have a 4+ invulnerable save basic, with a 3+ save on a jetbike.

Autarch HQs have a forcefield for a 4+ invulnerable and a 3+ regular

Aye, Autarch's use that arm mounted forcefield, and all the Psykers have that Rune Armor, which is a 4+ invulnerable (and no one is going to take off 4+ invulnerable save equipment just to jump on a fancy bike).

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