Light of Valar Question/Opinions

I emailed them a different question 2+ weeks ago and never got a response.

damn, that sucks

Seems like I'll just be proxying Khamul for another hero or sticking him in a formation full of spirits until there is a consensus on this rule.

That was the first time using magic for 3 of the 4 players - so it is not surprising that we get stuck on some of this stuff.

Don't be afraid to play Khamul because you won't always face an enemy mage or the mage may not have command.

If you do see Radagast or Gandalf, you know have some experience on what to do. You know you need to keep you space until you can get within 12" with priority to Black Dart them.

I'll throw you a hint to say that in a 600 point tourney nobody can take Radagast as you don't have the ally points.

I call for a temporary house rule on this...LoV is rather OP against a wraith in a formation... makes them almost pointless...but at the same time it makes sense that something that hurts spirits would hurt them. I would say maybe give them the hard to kill table or something just for the purpose of this attack...or maybe make it d3 strength "x" hits instead of automatic. What do you guys think?

Solmyr wrote:I called GW today but when you select that you have a question about the rules, they give you a recording saying to email your questions to:

askyourquestion@games-workshop.com

Guess i'll send them an email and hope for a response.

Although yes, on p72 it does say that "A magical power that is targeted against a formation will also affect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" It is still not clear whether this means that you can apply the effect of the spell you want when the formation's race is human but the hero's race is spirit. LoV says if the target enemy are Spirits, they suffer D3 hits. But in this case, the target enemy are human, and their leader is a spirit. Seems like a gray area to me.

I have Khamul and play Easterlings and I have to agree with Jerry. The spell affects the formation...Kamul is part of that formation therefore it affects him.Your not sniping,he's a Spirit and he's part of the formation,life sucks. It doesnt benefit me to agree with Jerry,but fair is fair. Counter it with...something. Figure out how to neutralize Ragadast or keep Khamul far away from him.

rokassan wrote:

Solmyr wrote:I called GW today but when you select that you have a question about the rules, they give you a recording saying to email your questions to:

askyourquestion@games-workshop.com

Guess i'll send them an email and hope for a response.

Although yes, on p72 it does say that "A magical power that is targeted against a formation will also affect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" It is still not clear whether this means that you can apply the effect of the spell you want when the formation's race is human but the hero's race is spirit. LoV says if the target enemy are Spirits, they suffer D3 hits. But in this case, the target enemy are human, and their leader is a spirit. Seems like a gray area to me.

I have Khamul and play Easterlings and I have to agree with Jerry. The spell affects the formation...Kamul is part of that formation therefore it affects him.Your not sniping,he's a Spirit and he's part of the formation,life sucks. It doesnt benefit me to agree with Jerry,but fair is fair. Counter it with...something. Figure out how to neutralize Ragadast or keep Khamul far away from him.

For a big investment in points (10.6-13.3%) you get ringwraith protection. That doesn't seem so out of whack to me. You can also field more wraiths than good can mages.

I agree with Bill. It is a hard line RAW angle to play the "target is the orcs and not the spirit" card. How exactly would they protect him from the light burning him? Do they give him cool ork goggles from Oakley?

For the record, Mike brought Radagast in his half of the 1500 point list. I did not have an EH.

I'm getting a Radagast for options, but he is not in the first 1500 point list that I'm building.

Thats why Amdur is my main man. Try that Light of Valar on him as he's carving that ass up.

Frantic wrote:I call for a temporary house rule on this...LoV is rather OP against a wraith in a formation... makes them almost pointless...but at the same time it makes sense that something that hurts spirits would hurt them. I would say maybe give them the hard to kill table or something just for the purpose of this attack...or maybe make it d3 strength "x" hits instead of automatic. What do you guys think?

I think Life Leach is OP I think we should have a house rule not to have it...

I think Amdur is OP I think we should have a house rule not to have it...

and Lurtz... OP... no go

Ohh Ohh Vault Wardens and RagdaddyAss and Dragons and, and, let me go look in the book...



JerryB

Honestly lets keep the rules as they are. Now that people know what the possibilities are you just have to plan for them.


Also, I read in there that Epic Heroes can just "shrug off" a spell on a 4+. Did anyone try this with that spell?

To me that seems like the answer right there.

I think this is, again, bad writing and vague descriptions on GW's part.

Ive come to this conclusion about all this.

This spell Targets the "Formation". What this means is that if the formation was a spirit formation, then it would receive the d3 hits. If there is a hero in the formation; THE D3 HITS DOES NOT AFFECT HIM DIRECTLY . However this is not the scenario in question. What happens in the case of an orc formation with a Wraith in it. I'm pretty dam sure that the wraith its self DOES NOT get hit by the spell directly because it wouldnt be any different if it was in a spirit formation.

If i throw a fireball into your formation, the fire ball doesnt hit your formation AND the hero in it. Why would LoV be any different? It shouldn't.

By saying that the D3 hits affects just the wraith in an orc formation, you also have to say that Fireball will affect the hero in a formation, which is WRONG. You would also have to say, that if you hit a spirit formation with LoV then EACH and EVERY spirit in the formation suffers the D3 hits, which again is WRONG.

What im saying is that the spell is meant for a FORMATION, not an individual Unit. It doesnt matter if hes Uber powerful, and it doesnt matter that hes a spirit within a non spirit formation.

Now, you can go ahead and quote "A magical power that is targeted against a formation will also affect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation". And im going to tell you that means status effects like enfeeble, that lower or gain a stat. it does not mean that it individually targets the Hero and kills him or effects him DIRECTLY.

Again, "A magical power that is targeted against a formation will also affect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" means that if a formation is affected by enfeeble, and a hero joins that formation, that means he suffers the loss of strength.

It does NOT mean that if i cast Light of valor on your formation of orcs that's led by a ring wraith that pwns the world, i can snipe him with LoV and smile.

And Jerry, we did discussed this yesterday, and you are right, you're not sniping the wraith, hes getting affected by what was cast on his formation. However, if you think about it, what do you think people are going to do? They are going to cast VoL on the formations that have Wraiths in them because its a cheap way to get rid of them. Which isnt fair to the person who used points to get them in the game.

So if any House rules are going to be made, we should say majority rules in formations. Meaning this - If i throw a Ring Wraith in a formation of Orcs, that formation is an ORC formation, and anything that effects spirits does not effect them in the slightest, the Wraith is considered an Orc unless he is singled out for what ever reason (Heroic Duels and anything of that nature) Im pretty sure that's fair for everyone.

Im sorry if i pass a jerk with all this ranting, but im looking at this from the point of view as a PC gamer where there is a bug in a game, and people exploit it to win. Yes it is a bug, and No it wasnt intended. And No i dont think people should use that bug to win, it isnt fair to others who want to play fair.

Saj, I see alot of where your coming from.

However, you can't warrant to me that its a "cheap way." Your ring wraith costs 125 pts. Ragadast, the cheapest Wizard out there that I know, costs 160 pts. On top of this, he's an ally for every army, which means that you need to play at least 640 pts of game to field him.

If someone is bringing a 160 pt character for the sole purpose of killing wraiths then I'd say they are spending a pretty damn good insurance policy. Just like you bringing your wraith to deal with lots of different situations (including casting spells) is pretty good.

I'm going to reread the magic section again cause I don't doubt the validity of your arguments games wise, I just don't buy your point cost thing. They have to spend the points to take the mage, and they are spending more to do it.

It's all good ya'all!

What i meant was a Focus3 spell, which is cheap for a spell, shouldnt be able to knock out a wraith.

You said that an epic hero can shrug off a spell on a 4 or better, exactly what does that mean? does that mean if you cast LoV on me, gimli can shrug it off?

Page 71 "Will of Iron"

"To resist a spell, nominate a Hero in the formation immediately as the formation is chosen as the target of a spell. That Hero must immediately spend a Might Point. Roll a dice, on a 4 or more the spell dissipates and has no effect..."
Yeah, baby, spend them might points, gobble it up, gobble it up yummy! Cause my RagdaddyAss is going to be on you until you are toast! That would suck if you spent a might point and roll a 333333333!

Sorry, I do not agree, the rules are very clear on this particular subject.
I see this as an absolute refusal to accept the rules. It is not broken, just the opposite, it gives balance. There are certain characters who are very powerful (Lurtz, Amdur, Khamul to name a few, hell throw Gimli and Legolas too) and this just addresses the need to give another player options.

JerryB

The focus level of the spell is not relevant. and nobody is saying the spell does not target the formation.

What we are saying is that when the Wraith joins the Orc formation, they become a formation of Orcs AND Spirits.

The Spirit of The Rules supports this side. It is a flash of light and orcs or whatever can not absorb the magic light to protect the spirit from damage.

Saying that means if i cast it on a formation of spirits, every single spirit in that formation receives the d3 hits? is that correct?

What you guys are saying that since there are no spirits in the formation other then the wraith, then all the damage that can affect a spirit goes directly to the wraith instead of the formation as a whole, which im sure is not intended.

Saj wrote:Saying that means if i cast it on a formation of spirits, every single spirit in that formation receives the d3 hits? is that fair?

Not individually, but as a unit I do. If you only have one spirit in the unit then obviously he would take the hits.

Page 72. Light of the Valar

"...In addition, if the target enemy are Spirits, they suffer D3 automatic hits".

Page 163. Ringwraith Race= Spirit.

Page 64. "...a Hero's Resilience is used only in a duel or against certain magical powers (see page 70)".

JerryB

"...In addition, if the target enemy are Spirits, they suffer D3 automatic hits".


In this case, the target enemy ARE NOT spirits... further more, you are not targeting the hero in question becuase you cant with this spell.

Saj wrote:"...In addition, if the target enemy are Spirits, they suffer D3 automatic hits".


In this case, the target enemy ARE NOT spirits...

Wrong sir. Simply wrong. The target would be Orcs AND Spirits.

Radagast, one of the strongest mages in Middle Earth lore nuked down one over zealously played Ringwraith and we have had a week of debate since based on this incorrect (IMHO) argument right here.

So damage that supposed to go a formation instead hits one unit?

Sorry guys, thats wrong as well. But i give up.

Fact: Page 68 Hero/Epic JOIN a formation they ARE part of the formation.

Fact: Page 72. A magical power that is TARGETED against a formation will also affect any EPIC HERO'S that have JOIN that formation.

Fact: When I was presented the FACTS about charging, I accepted the FACTS.

Please accept the facts.

JerryB

Saj wrote:So damage that supposed to go a formation instead hits one unit?

Sorry guys, thats wrong as well. But i give up.

The spell ONLY effects SPIRITS (insofar as damage is concern, every members courage is challenged).

There are certain spells and weapons the effect certain Races.

JerryB

Saj wrote:So damage that supposed to go a formation instead hits one unit?

Sorry guys, thats wrong as well. But i give up.

The damage is supposed to hit the spirits.

Page 72. A magical power that is TARGETED against a formation will also affect any EPIC HERO'S that have JOIN that formation.

So does this mean when i cast fireball or the earthquake spell, it not only effects the formation, but the hero as well?

so that means, he takes the damage directly, as well as his formation?