Start of Phase process

The comment by Solmyr regarding Epic tranquity got me thinking.

One of the points of contention during a game seems to be who can spend a might point, when, and on what.

I reviewed the text on pages 66 for Heroic Actions and 69 Epic Actions.
All HAs are tied to a specific phase and they must be declared at the start of that phase.
What is missing is a clearly defined "Start of Phase" process

Start of Phase
Priority Player (P1) declares intent to use HA or passes
Other Player (P2) declares intent to use HA or passes
If P1 passes and P2 uses HA, P1 has the option to change and declare HA use as well

If only one player declares intent, they then state ALL HA for the phase in order (who and what), all HA are executed, and the phase continues.

If both declare intent, you roll for HA priority for that phase. 1-3 is P1, 4-6 is P2.
Player with HA priority declares his first HA (who and what)
Player w/o HA priroity declares his first HA (who and what)
toggle unit all are declared
Adjust ALL might points

Process all HAs inthe order declared.
Continue with the phase


EPIC ACTIONS
So where do Epic Actions fit in? In some cases it depends on the action. ie: Epic Tranquity must be declared at the Start of the Charge Phase. Thus before HAs are declared and someone uses a might point trying to charge Radagast.

If no set point is spcified, Epic Actions can be used when it is the Heros turn to act. This makes Epics more powerful in that they can be declared "on the fly". You can use EAs to counter HAs.

ie: At the start of the fight phase, the Fallen Kingdom player does not declare HAs. His opponent does and Amdur finds himself in an unexpected Heroic Duel with a stout Iron Guard Ancient captain. Knowing the fight values are close, Amdur can immediately declare an Epic Duel or Epic Strike or BOTH to increases his chaces to win at the point where he acts - in this case, the start of the duel.

Comments? Questions? Corrections?

Thank the game gods for might points.

Because any hero, epic or otherwise, you have to spend your might points wisely. So, Amdur may be reluctant to use a might point to change a dice roll to kill one more smurf knowing he may get called out by a duel from a 50 point captain.
On the flip side, I would wait till Amdur HAS spent all his might points before I call him out to a duel by my peon 50 point Captain (hey I could win), so I would be assured he could not summon Epic Strike.

Tactics baby!

JerryB

To might or not to might? That is the question......

Do you think I have the process sequence outlined correct based on the rules?

I think you're wrong with the epic tranquility.If p1 calls an epic tranquility and player two calls a heroic charge they'd have roll to see which one gets to go first.

Shadow, honestly, I have never agonized over the Heroic Action.
I have been pretty lose and free when players call and I have as yet, not been disappointed or felt my opponent deliberately call some Heroic Action out of turn. If it is a deal breaker I might bring this up.

I am more into the flow of the game and really hate to get bog down with minute details.

I played a FOW game (it was a tournament) and after nearly two hours we were still on turn two, everyone else went to lunch. Henry my opponent challenge every rule and decision and debated every statement. It wasn't fun. We never argue or got upset, it just drag on....

Not that I can't be an asshole. Just ask JC and Rick about my charging rant. I am surprise they still play with me! I am trying to improve!

Shadow, I would like to have a section just for rules. We can call it "One Book to Rule Them All" I really like that, it's a hoot.



JerryB

One of us will add it. I'm at court on my phone right now. So I can't.

jerryb wrote:Shadow, honestly, I have never agonized over the Heroic Action.
I have been pretty lose and free when players call and I have as yet, not been disappointed or felt my opponent deliberately call some Heroic Action out of turn. If it is a deal breaker I might bring this up.

I am more into the flow of the game and really hate to get bog down with minute details.

I played a FOW game (it was a tournament) and after nearly two hours we were still on turn two, everyone else went to lunch. Henry my opponent challenge every rule and decision and debated every statement. It wasn't fun. We never argue or got upset, it just drag on....

Not that I can't be an asshole. Just ask JC and Rick about my charging rant. I am surprise they still play with me! I am trying to improve!

Shadow, I would like to have a section just for rules. We can call it "One Book to Rule Them All" I really like that, it's a hoot.

JerryB

Made the new rules section and moved all Rule based question there (here). Moved everything else to General Discussion. Locked the parent thread. I'd like to consolidate the 2 list sections into one to match the other game sections. Let me know if your OK with that Jerry.

As for the process, I don't want to bog down either. However, with a tourney on the horizon I think it is best to define how it should work so we don't have problems or debates at the event. It is critical to take a second an think at the start of each phase about what you want to do with regard to Might that phase.

Warlord Solskritt wrote:I think you're wrong with the epic tranquility.If p1 calls an epic tranquility and player two calls a heroic charge they'd have roll to see which one gets to go first.

If it was Heroic Tranquity you would have it correct; however....

Only Heroic Actions have a roll off. Epic Actions do not.
Only Heroic Actions have the queue. Epic Actions do not.

If the radagast player has priority and does not declare his epic action and then passes, it would be too late.
If the radagast player did not have priority and the other player started to declare HA intent - you simply tell them to "Hold on because your using Epic Tranquility and that goes first." and then continue.

Just because you declare Epic Tranquilty at the start of the charge phase does not mean it needs to pass through the Heroic Action process. Nothing in the rules suggests that Epic Tranquity or any Epic Action must pass through the Heroic Action declaration or queue process. Epic Tranquity would go first and it the effect is immediate.

Epic Tranquility " Radagast may call an epic tranquility at the start of the charge phase.Charges may not be made against Radagast's formation that turn."

Heroic Charge " If a Hero declares a heroic charge at the start of the charge phase,he and his formation will charge before other models that are not making heroic actions."

"Epic actions are treated like heroic ations"

"If both players wish to make Heroic actions in the same phase,then the sides alternate picking a Hero to make a Heroic action.Roll a dice to randomly determine which side has the first pick-1,2,or 3 the Evil side goes first;4,5,or 6 the good side goes first.Might cannot be used to affect the result"

I don't see how I'm wrong.

Your wrong because Epic Tranquity is NOT a Heroic Action. It is an Epic Action and NOT subject to the Heroic Action queue or rules.

Your using the "start of charge phase" text redundancy to generate a conclusion that is simply not supported by the rest of the text.

This is how I see it....

"Epic actions are treated like Heroic Actions, and require the expenditure of a might point."

I think JC is correct in the fact that you would have to roll to see who gets to call the first Heroic Action.

Lets say that player 1 wins the roll and calls heroic charge and player 2 goes next and calls Epic Tranquility. It seems to me that ET goes off as it happens before any models are moved. Although it is called second, it is still called before any models are moved hence that unit can't be charged.

Now adding insult to injury, player 1 would lose his might point because (page 66 paragraph 6 and 7) states that the might used to declare the heroic action are still spent. They are not restored because the Heroic Action has not happened.

Thats how I see it.

Keep in mind everyone that the point of these threads is to hash out they grey areas of the book and come to a conclusion on how to correctly play it until GW rules.

Who knows who will be right in the end. I doubt anyone will have guessed all of the answers correctly.

I want a FAQ

Shadow, I do not have the rule book in front of me so I can't site my source, but Epic Actions are consider to be dealt with as Heroric action insofar as mechanics, so I believe JC is correct also.

Later today I will get the actual page numbers for your review.

JerryB

I read it again yesterday and I can certainly both sides of the coin. Here is the key statement:

"Epic actions are treated like Heroic Actions, and require the expenditure of a might point."

What do they mean by "treated like"?
A) They use a might point?
B) They use the queue and a might point?

Going by RAW on that single sentece - I can see the push for B

What gives me pause is the following sentences in the paragraph which (no book, not quoting) discuss how Epics are different from HA and how EA are not limited to being called at the start of the phase and how they can be used whenever the EH acts.

Those Epic rules pushed me over to the A side.

Either way, you still have this metal chess game at the start of each phase and I find that cool. I can work with however we want to go until we get some clarity from GW.

Actually the exact wording is

"Epic actions are treated like Heroic actions, and require the expenditure of a point of Might. Epic actions do not always have to be declared at the start of the phase, but are called when the Hero's formations is due to act".

Page 69


JerryB

No one has responded to my post..... They way I see it, ET will always trump a heroic charge. Because they are called before any models are moved. Anyone disagree?

jerryb wrote:.
Not that I can't be an asshole. Just ask JC and Rick about my charging rant. I am surprise they still play with me! I am trying to improve!

rules debate can get heated sometimes, i'm glad we got that charging thing figured out now lol.

Hurricane, I concur, ET happens before anything. But I believe the issue is WHEN you CALL the Epic Action.
It state that RagiddyAss may call ET at the start of the Charge Phase, nothing about waiting his turn.
There are several other examples of actions that must be declaired at the start of the move,shoot,charge and fight phase. And these action happen outside of the normal sequence.

JerryB

Solmyr wrote:

jerryb wrote:.
Not that I can't be an asshole. Just ask JC and Rick about my charging rant. I am surprise they still play with me! I am trying to improve!

rules debate can get heated sometimes, i'm glad we got that charging thing figured out now lol.

Rick, thanks for your tolerance. That was a rude introduction to a great game and bad sportmenship. I did stress with JC not to simply agree with me, but state his logic. It was not until later better proof was presented. Even before that I had agree with the general public that I was wrong about my stance.

Beside I really do like the correct version as it does not leave you open to a counter charge.

JerryB