Vaul's Unmaking and "Activated" Magic Items

So me and Brandon played a game this past Sunday, Skaven vs. High Elves.

Brandon brought the new, and cheaper, and better, Storm Banner which he activated at the start of my turn.

I don't like this very much, and use my magic to cast Vaul's Unmaking on the unit carrying the banner. I get the spell off (double 6s help) and of course, choose to nullify the storm banner.


Now here comes our question. The storm banner is a magic banner that, when activated, emits this power. Vaul's Unmaking basically nullifies the magic banner, making it a mundane version instead.

Would the banner's abilities immediately cease, or would we still have to wait until he runs a 4+ and fails?

This will probably remain a tricky situation to handle until they FAQ it, I can imagine two circumstances:

The item makes the magical banner a mundane banner - taking the effect with it... OR the "storm" of the banner rages on after it has been activated (no longer dependent on the banner being around - I.E. it flees off the board, is stuffed down the pants of a giant; or in this case, is un-made with the spell) and you wait for it to stop on a 4+ or whatever the diddly it is now.


EDIT: I understand my post did nothing but postulate and chin-stroke... so I apologize for not having actually suggested a possible solution other than the good old "resolve disputes on a D6" method.

My initial instinct is to say that once the storm is unleasehed, it rages on until he fails the roll.

Removing the banner's power at that point would not help because the "cat is out of the bag."

Remember that it effect both players and he can't control when it ends, which indicates once untapped it is completely in the hands of mother nature.

I agree with Bill, once unleashed the effect lasts until it runs out. What Vaul's unmakign does is make the banner useles for the rest of the game since the banner is not a one use only item anymore.

whether or not its one use only is hotly contested with the majority believing its one use only. In every other language it says one use only, but in english it says the effects end etc.

I'd say the storm ends if the banner loses its magical properties

I tend to agree with Matt, but I don't know for sure.

Even though it's "activated" it still needs a home energy source.

Matt, are you going to be in town on the 20th??

The Tomb Kings have a similar one use item which unleashes a sand storm and prevents the enemy army from marching that turn.

Sure the banner would need power to activate the storm, but once released the power is tapped and the storm rages on regardless.

There isn't a rule to indicate that breaking the unit or capturing the banner will remove the storm, so why would using Vaul's on the magic depleated item stop mother nature?

I'd have to read the specific item description, and then look at the magic item section in the basic rule book to have a better idea.

Dan - yeah, I'm arriving on the 18th, so I'll be in Miami. What's happening on the 20th?

Warhammer Tournament!!!

I would agree with your logic Bill, but in your situation listed above, the magical banner is still channeling energy. The spell completely removes all magical abilities from the banner. After you capture a banner the banner's magic doesn't go away, you just now have it instead (and don't know how to use it, is the idea).

Nice! How come there's no announcement anywhere? What are the details?

It's sticky posted in Find a Game

Matt, the announcement is in the Find a game section.

My take on the rule would be thus.

The text says " The banner may be ACTIVATED before any players turn"
The use of the word activation, means that it's being turned on so to speak. It's not just unleashing a storm and that's it. It's an ongoing magical effect, that ends when the player rolls a 4+.

Therefore it would seem logical to me that if it is considered an ongoing magical effect, then that effect would cease, once the banner was made into a mundane item, by the power of vauls unmaking.

Now since there is no FAQ regarding this yet... I would say the most fair and just way of dealing with conundrum would to declare that if the Elven player succeeds in casting Vaul's Unmaking, the effects of the banner would cease at the end of that players turn, (automatically, that is without having to roll a 4+) and from that point on, the banner cannot be used for the rest of the game.

BTW the point of contention about the Storm Banner on the boards is that in the English Army Book, the banner is clearly missing anything that says "ONE USE ONLY" , unlike the previous Skaven book that had the words clearly written over the rules text.

It seems to me that they clearly would have made the banner more expensive if they had intended it to be a multi use item. It must have just slipped their editing. Especially if all the other languages have ONE USE in their text.

Unfortunately if using RAW, we must go by what there in front of us and have to wait for the errata to come out.

Oops, I was expecting to see it posted in the Warhammer section...

Since I've been away, I haven't been checking the find a game section haha

I like Stephan's reasoning.

In the mean time, I suggest we ban the storm banner and Vaul's Unmaking... or just Skaven and HE armies, just to be sure

I disagree w/ Stephen.

Yes it is activated, but when activated it calls a huge storm.

It does not power the storm (which effects both sides). It does not control the storm (can't control when it ends, random length, no mention of RIP rules). It just STARTS a storm.

As a "one use item", after activation the power is used and it becomes a mundane banner.

If you cast on the banner BEFORE activation, you can drain the magic powers - but once the genie is out of the bottle you'll need to ride it out until it stops raining.

Well , clearly there's nothing in the rules that gives a clear answer to the question, and as much as we would like, we cannot use the fluff to determine whether or not the storm should end or not.

One could argue that it is a "natural storm " created by an unnatural process, that rages on it's own after created. Or one can argue that it is an "unnatural storm" powered by the sustaining magical energies of the banner which created it. Who knows ?

Point is, since there's no FAQ, so both players should come to a comprimise.

To me, the idea of shutting the storm down at the end of the player turn in which Vaul's Unmaking is cast, automatically, without rolling a 4+. Is reasonable.

Agree with that

I'll post the ? to the European rule lawyer crowd and see what they say.

All 3 replys on the Euro boards agree that the effect immediately ends if you cast Vaul's on the Banner.

Well there ya have it.

I guess we should go with the Eurotrash.

Well now, glad to hear it! A definite answer at least!