Which type of Tournament would you prefer?

I dont like smaller point games much, i have a lot of stuff, and i like to field it. If you want to have armies rely more on troops ( some armies cant pull this off ) then just restrict the amount of gear a character can have by half. Lords only 50 points, Heroes only 25 points and see how that works out.

I would like to have a Apocalypse like game for Fantasy, Good vs Evil. We can use the mega battle rules for WFB, you can have evryone pay a fee and add that up to the GW support money and the winning side would get prize money distributed amongst them.

Diosamblet wrote:

ShadowMaster wrote:http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=58933

Here is a link to the ETC comp system - You'll notice they change more than just the rules on what you can bring in a list. They "adjust" quite a bit.

Bill, the ETC system is extremist - they're no longer playing Warhammer, really - and a bad example. Not to sound like a broken recorder, but the Aussies have been doing it for years with satisfying results.

We agree that they are no longer playing WHFB, but a psuedo hybrid they invented.

Can we find a good Aussie system to look at as an example?

I think what your after Dan is an Elite Forces game where you create the list around a single character (perhaps a right hand) and his personal command.

I found one published by someone in Chicago based off of the "Aussie Wars" system.

2250 list of most current book. DOW choices as per DOW PDF rules. So 7th ed. can take DOW.

No painting requirement and unpainted armies can still win any award except for appearance.

Lists can be refused if you are obviously are trying to break the system. (Example: empire or dwarfs taking a 3rd cannon by making one a DOW choice)

Additional army list restrictions:
No double rares (exceptions are: you can have 2 of the following – 2for1 choices like spawns, DE RTB’s – HE RTB’s and eagles – WE eagles) – Treeman and treeman ancient are considered double rares as are giant and DOW giant.

No triple Specials – no exceptions

Core has to have at least 2 different selections (so no HE with 2 units of archers and nothing else or no lizardmen with 3 units of skinks without taking any saurus or swarms – models have to be significantly different: skinks and skinks skirmishers are not different enough, neither are peasant bowmen and skirmishing peasant bowmen)

Magic:
Take as much magic as you like but you are only allowed to use 9 power dice per turn. Rerolling a dice counts as a extra power dice and bound spells count as follows: Power lever 4 or less = 1 dice, Power level 5, 6 or 7 = 2 dice, power level 8 or higher counts as 3 dice. If you have more then the allowed amount you do not have to tell your opponent which ones you are going to use. No limit on dispel dice.
Using power dice to dispel remains in play spells do not count toward allowance.

Tomb King magic:
TK still need to roll dice. However since they count as bound spells (TK have the benefit that they never fail to cast) the roll will determine how many dice it counts as. So if a TK player rolls 1 dice and gets a 5 or 6 is will count as 2 dice. If he rolls 2 dice and the total is 4 or lower then it counts as only 1 dice. If the TK player has used 8 dice this way already in a phase and he rolls again he can never roll more then a 4. So 5 or higher will be regarded as a 4. Or if he has already rolled 7 dice the result of the next roll can never be higher then a 7.

Shooting:
max of 3 artillery pieces – no more then 35 infantry models that can shoot with a range of more then 17″.

Scoring:
20 point scoring system
Less then 200 VP difference is 10 for each player.
Every 200 points gets 1 more for the winner and 1 less for the loser.
So:
200-399 is 11-9
400-599 is 12-8
600-799 is 13-7
800-999 is 14-6
1000-1199 is 15-5
1200-1399 is 16-4
1400-1599 is 17-3
1600-1799 is 18-2
1800-1999 is 19-1
2000 and more is 20-0

Per game you get a bonus based on tier and comp.
Tier bonus:
Tier 1: DE, DoC, VC – 3 points
Tier 2: WE, Brets – 3.5 points
Tier 3: TK, HE, Empire, Lizards, WoC, Skaven – 4 points
Tier 4: O&G, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, DoW – 4.5 points
Tier 5: OK, BoC – 5 points

Comp bonus: Will be decided by panel and will range from -2 to +2. Added to every game score.

3 objective points per game to be attained.

Appearance: 0-20 points (need at least 50% of army painted with 3 color minimum requirement and based to qualify for any appearance points – fully painted will get better scores obviously). Panel scored.

Sportmanship: At the end of the tourney you give each of your opponents 1, 3 or 5 sportsmanship points. However you can only give one person 1, one person 3 and one person 5 points. Feel free to factor comp in on your sportsmanship determination.

Total points possible:
60 battle points
9 objective points
15 tier points
6 comp points
15 sportsmanship points
20 appearance points
Total: 125 points

Awards:
Best overall: Best total score (Sportsmanship is tie-breaker)
Best General: Battle points + Objective points + Tier points + comp points (tie-breaker Tier points + Comp points)
Best appearance: Appearance points
Best sportsman: Sportsmanship points (tiebreaker is comp points + tier points)

Round 1 match-ups will be scheduled based on Comp and Tier bonus.

Rounds 2 and 3 match-ups will be based on total battle points + objective points + tier bonus + comp bonus at end of previous round

I don't like the whole. "you can't take this, you can't take that"

That's bullshit. Comp should be, "if you take this, you get this many less points" go ahead and take a greater demon.. you get less points.. go ahead and take 2 hydras "wink wink nudge nudge" , you get less points.

That kind of stuff.

I Agree with Stephan, the whole notion of restricting the game because of unbalances is just dumb. Taking points off Army comp works better.

Heres some army comp for you:

Demons: -25pts

DE, VC: -15pts

HE and whatnot: -7pts

O&G, Ogres, beasts : 0

I love how people complain about hydras. If my bolt throwers were 35pts and single shot then I would think about taking them. As is: fuck that.

I actually like the DE and HE bolt throwers, personally.

And I don't mind the hydras at all. After all, I think it's one of the main focus points of the dark elves. Lots of low-strength attacks backed up by lots of different monsters.


Back to the initial discussion... Here are a few of my reasons for wanting to run a smaller tournament this go around.

1. The last 2 events we did were 2250, so I like diversity.

2. We have a couple of newer players (or players starting new armies) and I would like to give them a good opportunity to learn and play.

3. Smaller point size means we'll (hopefully) see more painted, if not fully painted, armies on the table, which I think sets a good precedent for prospective gamers.

But, that's my two cents.

Whomever voted for 1000 pts or the team battle, will you please PM me and let me know if you had a preference for either 1500 or 2250? Looks like those are the two front runners!

If it means we can get one or more new players involved I'd definitely drop my vote of 2250 to 1500. It'd also give me a reasonable goal in terms of painting my stuff.

Well I know Lemur (forgot his name, sorry dude!) Is just starting Lizzies and might be able to swing 1500. I'm also helping my fiance build a pirate army, we probably can throw together 1500 before the next tournament.

FYI:

I posted the next Fantasy event. It's for January 24th. I know it's a week after the WoTR event, but Joel wants to try and have something in January.

I would like to change it up for Feb, so lets keep this discussion going and get some solidified for mid-Feb as far as unique-ness goes.

I can make it to the Feb. tourney!

Not with anything painted, unless I take my Orcs. Which I might do at 1500 pts

Ovich wrote:I don't like the whole. "you can't take this, you can't take that"

That's bullshit. Comp should be, "if you take this, you get this many less points" go ahead and take a greater demon.. you get less points.. go ahead and take 2 hydras "wink wink nudge nudge" , you get less points.

That kind of stuff.

I was wondering why you were pushing for a system that outlaws what you currently play.
So we have come full circle - you really don't want a comp system.

scurrdi wrote:
And I don't mind the hydras at all. After all, I think it's one of the main focus points of the dark elves. Lots of low-strength attacks backed up by lots of different monsters.

Dragons
6 S6 attacks
T6 W6 3+
360 points

War Hydra
6 rerollable S3, armor piercing attacks
7 rerollable S5 attacks
Skirmisher that you can hide in woods
T5 W5 4+ and Regen
175 points

Yes you give up a point of S, T, W, and armor save, but for HALF THE POINTS of the average Dragon you get 7 more attacks, hatred, skirmishing, and regen

Skirmish and handler rules aside, the most broken part fo the Hydra is in the unit cost.

DE dragon is 320pts

Over the Hydra: Higher T, S, W, Sv, WS, & Ld. It is a mount, flies, and has a str4 breath weapon that causes the enemy to make a ld. check at -3 or not be able to charge the following turn.

The hydra is 175pts

Over the dragon: two more attacks at WS4 and Str5. handlers add an additional 6 attacks at ws4, str3, & armour piercing. It moves like skirmishers and has regeneration. Has a breath weapon the str of its wounds.

At 15points more than half the dragon its a steal. I'd say its about 25pts under priced with all things considered (I'd rather be a flyer than a skirmisher and I can count on one hand how many dudes my handlers killed last tournament).

Hydras are awesome. I want one

Chris, do you think that friend who lent you that 3rd hydra would sell it or trade for it?

That's the one I pinned You'd have to talk to nate. I think he's more into skaven than is DE now, , but you'd have to talk to him

So again we all agree - Hydra are awesome and you'd be crazy not to run 2.

Hydras are awesome, but reaper bolt throwers are great too, if a bit expensive.

Chris - I either forgot or wasn't aware the 3rd hydra was Nate's haha. You always referred to it as "my friend's hydra"

It sounds like we should run another 2250 tourny until ideas are ironed out. I still have not played against everyone and others only once. I still want to get a solid feel for my army at a standard level of play.

After that, we could spice it up with some good v. evil or escalation matches. The trick with the latter is that some players may not have that type of flexibility with their armies so their lower point armies are lacking. Also, it is clear that some armies are better than others based on numerous factors, but diverting from standard rules seems to take away from the diversity and excitement of the game - too many rules and not allowing players to play their play style. Chris had a good idea in just docking particular armies overall tourny points, rather than muddling with the nuances of what you can and cannot field.

I rather we hold it on Feb, gonna be next to impossible to take 2 sundays off in a row.

Hydras are nasty, but so far i havent had much probs dealing with them, i can kill them if i hit them with the right stuff, but Chris has a bad habit of failling all his saves with them when he plays me for some reason im more worried about those damn Harpies ! annoying bishes !!

I'm also not a fan of restricting what people can bring. If you own 2 kick ass Hydras (or 20 kingts, or 12 flamers, etc) - you should allowed to use them.

I'm also not a big fan of docking points for something outside of a rules violation. It is a competition after-all.

What I did like from the ELC and Aussie rule sets was The ladder system:

All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C.
Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts and C to 2500pts.

Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos
Vampires
Dark Elves

Category B (2250pts)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dwarfs
Empire
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Lizardmen
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves

Category C (2500pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Beasts of Chaos

This seems to even things out without restricting anyone too much.
I'd put my money on Matt if he plays O&G and we use this.

Neal, check the "find a game" section, we've got another event up for January.

As for the tournament system, does anyone want to try this out? (what Bill is suggesting)?

The only way to balance armies is to rewrite them all simultaneously from the ground up.

That said, I don't think I would stand a chance against a 2250 Scaven list(especially with the new book) or 2500 O&G list as 2000pt DE.

The Eldar Guy wrote:The only way to balance armies is to rewrite them all simultaneously from the ground up.

Like Privateer Press just did with their game?
Throw in a digital distribution and you might even start a mad rush of model sales there.