State of Fantasy at Sunshine

Was there really any problem with the 7th ed. rule set? Aside from a few codexes

The Eldar Guy wrote:Was there really any problem with the 7th ed. rule set? Aside from a few codexes

The lagging sales probably to GW. Game has been hit hard over the years and WM/Hordes overtook it in sales at least in the US. 8E feels like them attempting to reboot the game with a simpler more user friendly ruleset to try and reach larger audience, but of course it alienates some of the old hardcore fans in the process. Seeing their last financial, it doesn't seem like WFB 8E was that big of a success and had little impact on overall sales.

lets not rate its success till atlest 3 books come out.

ok it sucks ur game got killed but come on don't complaine about it i am happy fantasy went away cuz 40k needs more prize support! i have not got one free thing in months!!! people need to understand that joel will order fantasy or lord of the ring stuff if U want so no big deal

Also people need to be nicer, just ignore people who suck

The Eldar Guy wrote:Was there really any problem with the 7th ed. rule set? Aside from a few codexes

Honestly? I found it tedious as fuck. I really, really, really wanted to like it, but it turned into a very anal game of geometry wars. "I blocked your charge." "Nuh-uh, you're 3 degrees off, fail." "I fire at this spot X inches away." "You miss, you should've said X+2 inches." "Oh, I've been playing for X amount of time and I'm good at geometry? Watch me snipe you with my warmachine. Canonball side pocket to general's face!"

And the balance was very, very whack. I'm not just saying that because I played Ogres. I brought an untested, unplayed High Elf army to a tournament and got 2nd place after having played less than 10 fantasy games...ever. That shit shouldn't happen, noobs shouldn't autowin because of their army.

I'll come back to this topic later. I'm not saying 8th is the better game because I haven't played it yet, but 7th was not all that. It was VERY unfriendly to beginners and had a hardcore fan base with a very elitist attitude that made the whole process to play it even harder. I mean, it's really hard to get excited about a game where you auto-lose if you pick the wrong army and where everyone is telling you about how superior a game it is and it's your fault for not having all the geometry memorized. I call tactics being able to gauge the situation and use things like terrain and having my troops work in concert at the right place, right time, not being able to tell when something is 12.2" vs 12.0" inches away. Just my opinion.

why play fantasy if it sux then? just play 40k cuz thats what people want to play i mean fantsy players take up to much space right now any way so just stop if you hate it and play 40k

Vycem wrote:

The Eldar Guy wrote:Was there really any problem with the 7th ed. rule set? Aside from a few codexes

Honestly? I found it tedious as fuck. I really, really, really wanted to like it, but it turned into a very anal game of geometry wars. "I blocked your charge." "Nuh-uh, you're 3 degrees off, fail." "I fire at this spot X inches away." "You miss, you should've said X+2 inches."

...not being able to tell when something is 12.2" vs 12.0" inches away. Just my opinion.

40k: Oh, out of 6"? can't charge. Out of 12"? Can't rapidfire.
Same can be said about any game that doesn't use premeasuring. Guess range thing was tricker on the measurement of distances but they were usually really powerful to compensate. Now, in 8th, they're even more powerful (no partials, because that's too complicated) without the guess range.

goldmanplus wrote:why play fantasy if it sux then? just play 40k cuz thats what people want to play i mean fantsy players take up to much space right now any way so just stop if you hate it and play 40k

Don't feed the troll.

KingdomCome wrote:

goldmanplus wrote:why play fantasy if it sux then? just play 40k cuz thats what people want to play i mean fantsy players take up to much space right now any way so just stop if you hate it and play 40k

Don't feed the troll.

was thinking the same thing

goldmanplus wrote:why play fantasy if it sux then? just play 40k cuz thats what people want to play i mean fantsy players take up to much space right now any way so just stop if you hate it and play 40k

because the warhammer 7th edition lets you play with gundams now. You can see the Skaven gundam at warhammerforge.com

goldmanplus wrote: Also people need to be nicer, just ignore people who suck

We should follow goldpussy advice and ignore him.

And the kid apparently sucks at 40K also. I beat him so many times I got bored playing the noob. No challenge at all.

The difference is that in 40k, the numbers get subsumed in the bigger picture. When I play 40k, I think "I need to take that objective, can I clear a path with enough time to seize it? Can I hold this position from how he'll likely strike next? Do I risk the odds in taking down that vehicle, and can I take the loss if the squad fails?" etc etc etc I start thinking in terms of the overall picture and if a unit failed me because I fired too early or tried to charge to soon, I don't begrudge it, I was going for the hail mary pass and failed.

With 7th ed fantasy, I never got that feeling. Any grand strategy, any maneuvering I planned, was all rapidly undone by things like "they were angled one degree off so they can't see the unit standing right next to them", etc. To get anywhere in the game I had to strip away any preconceptions of the board as a battlefield and think of it in terms of moving and facing along a very tight grid. The game always seemed to drag, and it wasn't because it was "tactically challenging", but because any tactic I could come up with had to be translated to a very, very careful and anal game of placement.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe all the vets did do enough of this calculations that they became subconscious. But even the one time I've played Flames of War, which has a gazillion rules of its own, the rules at least clicked and made sense in my head, and I could see how the mechanics of pushing back and forth as the different sides tried to get an objective made sense. A lot of fantasy rules seemed like artificial constraints to me and made no sense.

And that's not even touching the army book imbalances.

Just my opinion as a fantasy noob, not one of you grizzled vets remembering the glory days.

The Eldar Guy wrote:

Vycem wrote:

The Eldar Guy wrote:Was there really any problem with the 7th ed. rule set? Aside from a few codexes

Honestly? I found it tedious as fuck. I really, really, really wanted to like it, but it turned into a very anal game of geometry wars. "I blocked your charge." "Nuh-uh, you're 3 degrees off, fail." "I fire at this spot X inches away." "You miss, you should've said X+2 inches."

...not being able to tell when something is 12.2" vs 12.0" inches away. Just my opinion.

40k: Oh, out of 6"? can't charge. Out of 12"? Can't rapidfire.
Same can be said about any game that doesn't use premeasuring. Guess range thing was tricker on the measurement of distances but they were usually really powerful to compensate. Now, in 8th, they're even more powerful (no partials, because that's too complicated) without the guess range.

hey i dont mean to be hatin but i am just sayin how it is yeah i know i sux at 40k but i am just playing for fun so its cool. i really enjoy playing games and it makes me angry that all.

7Ed was tough for new players vs. savy vets because of the need to master the critical movement system.

People probably were not trying to be anal with you Endre - they were just playing the game as designed back then. (7d example): If I slide my unit into your flank where they are out of LoS - I do it for the tactical reason of denying your charge and attack. Just because it may still be close to within LoS - I can't just give it to you because then my whole move to elude you is wasted.

Until you leanred how to set things up and see 1-2 turns ahead, it was hard to get the attacks where you wanted them. You'd get baited out of position. Units would move or overrun out of range or site. It WAS a very tactical game.

Back to 8Ed

All the movement tactics are gone. Fixing the need to measure wheels when charging was good, but all the other movement changes remove tactics.

If you bait and flee, I just test and redirect. Light Cav movement tactics nerfed.

Forests and terrain no longer slow much down - so skirmisher movement tactics and advantages are nerfed.

TLoS makes shooting too easy. You can no longer hide anywhere except a rare building or big rock. You no longer need to plan your movement to have an open shooting lane. You no longer NEED that hill for your war machines. All of this makes removed tactics.

THE WOSRT is the Premeasure rule. That's what really needs to go if you want any tactics back. Placing cannon balls a perfect 6.1" out of targets everytime is rediculously easy and effective. Keeping shooters at the edge of their range. Shooty skirmishers like Flamers and Shades can be impossible to kill if played right and your opponent lacks the opposing skirmish unit to catch them. Even Sallys can cause big trouble.

Mix in the loss of tactics with the need to drasticly overhaul most builds for max effectiveness and I can understand why many ran for the hills. If I didn't really love the genre and I wasn't so invested with 5 armies - I may have bailed out with 8Ed.

Fortunately I've been able to trade some out for WM/H

I was under the impression that GW finally saw the light and was responding to the needs of their customers and had implemented some of the best features of LotR into 8th edition.

Unfortunately it appears to be the opposite.

This company's arrogance is endlessly fascinating.

Naw, I think 8th tried to even things out to make the game more accessible. Though some older players of the game might not like that a noob with money to burn can give them a hard time. It's just a matter of adjusting over time. Both 40k and fantasy are both tactically challenging for different reasons. Neither game is as mindless as the other. Even for Orks and Orcs. Want more fantasy players? Take the time to help Joel out with a new customer and do your best to play more. I would be there if I didn't have my time spent with my new baby girl. Also, don't be a dick to one another online or in store. That leaves a sour taste for all and the hobby. Even call people out when they do it on the side; they may not realize it as some games can get heated. A quick man-hug and make out session might have to be enforced. (no hommo, means not gay).

There are still tactics in 8Ed, but they are way dumbed down from the chess game like movements that was 7Ed.

8Ed tactics are more about charge combos - one fighty unit to do damage and one cheap unit to provide ranks and remove steadfast.

I like how everyone talks like they have 8th figured-out tactically and imply that's why they stopped playing, like the game got too easy or something.

I remember when I started on 7th plenty of players curb-stomped me and other noobs with reckless abandon and relished every second of it. They weren't playing it for the "chess-like" tactical challenges, that's for sure.

goldmanplus wrote:ok it sucks ur game got killed but come on don't complaine about it i am happy fantasy went away cuz 40k needs more prize support! i have not got one free thing in months!!! people need to understand that joel will order fantasy or lord of the ring stuff if U want so no big deal

Also people need to be nicer, just ignore people who suck

like you. just messing with you by the way

Vycem wrote:I like how everyone talks like they have 8th figured-out tactically and imply that's why they stopped playing, like the game got too easy or something.

I remember when I started on 7th plenty of players curb-stomped me and other noobs with reckless abandon and relished every second of it. They weren't playing it for the "chess-like" tactical challenges, that's for sure.

indeed they where doing boost their ego

I once saw one of his games when he tried playing. He was playing an ogre army. There was nothing he could have done in that game. He just kept shaking his head. Fantasy should come around again. Guys just have to make an effort to entice new players. What got me onboard for 8th was just watching you guys play and answering any questions I had without being bothered by them.
When I got to the store early on wednsdays and someone new came into the store, I made myself available to Joel to help out with questions. I hoped it helped bringing players to 40k.

it helped get me into 40k

jspyd3rx wrote:I once saw one of his games when he tried playing. He was playing an ogre army. There was nothing he could have done in that game. He just kept shaking his head.

That's a codex problem. When I played against him, knowing he was new, I took the chance to use units like corsairs (sub par choices but interesting ones) or wood elves.

I have to admit the first few games I played I had a headache afterwards. They were long, especially when you're new, and required a knowledge of the finer points of the rule with a close attention to detail. IMO, I believe it was more rewarding the more you played. I would rather a game be better in the long run than one that is interesting at first and then dwindles.

The Eldar Guy wrote:I have to admit the first few games I played I had a headache afterwards. They were long, especially when you're new, and required a knowledge of the finer points of the rule with a close attention to detail. IMO, I believe it was more rewarding the more you played. I would rather a game be better in the long run than one that is interesting at first and then dwindles.

Well put Chris

Personally I'm glad 7th ed Fantasy is gone.
To me it was the worst edition of the game that was ever made both in main rules and army books.
And judging from conversations I've had with other players all over (not just in the US) the feeling was generally the same all around except for the pure tournament crowd.
Only they seem to miss 7th edition... but then that fits as 7th was the most boringly forumlaic version.
And I'm glad that GW's developers finally managed to pull their heads out of their asses and stop catering to the tournament scene and making the game try to fit it.

Now it's back to the spirit of the earlier editions (1st-5th) where the main fun just came from playing the game large scale or small.
It didn't matter who won or lost, no prize, no ego stroking, just gaming for the hell of it.
Big monsters, insane characters, crazy magic phases, massive units clashing with one another... man I really have missed those days.