State of Fantasy at Sunshine

I recently spend about $300 in Joels on O&G stuff. I told him I was concerned about the activity level of fantasy at the store.

Joel came out during our game and told Luis and I about the April Ard Boyz date. He knew we wanted to play (we told him). He knows we are active in fantasy (we were standing there playing). We've played Ard Boyz there the past 4 years.

I took Joels choice to not hold Ard Boyz as a personal "fuck you" twords Luis and me.

mix that with the news and this thread:
https://splinterfaction.forumotion.com/t4037-further-wfb-tournaments
and that leaves me pretty much done with Joel and his bullshit.

I'll meet you guys down there for an occational game, but I'm not spending any more money in his place outside of handing him some spare change for his mandatory table fee.

I'm always opened to game at my place or any of the other stores in our area - but outside of prearranged meeting w/ friends, Sunshine is my last option.

I have not spoken directly with Joel recently about Fantasy, nor have I been to the store much recently in the past few months. I know, as we all know, that Fantasy has really slowed down to a standstill at Joel's. I know that people have also complained that Joel has not been promoting the Fantasy line as much as he has been 40k.

But, all I pretty much know is what people have told me. I've been leaning more towards FOW for awhile now, but if it's a big event in Broward (like a tournament or something) I wouldn't mind getting my butt up there to play. I just want to play against new people and new armies face new stuff. Thats why I try to support LGSs.

Its not just miami. Its pretty dead up here in orlando.

Also, there was never much terrain for fantasy. Last time I was there- there were the same amount of forests, trees, rivers, and the occasional buildings as there were previously. We just never used much terrain.

As bad as it sounds, Joel has done some form of " Fuck you" action to many people in the past. Myself included. Most of the time its out of a business mindset. They don't call it the almighty dollar for nothing you know. Whenever something like that occurs, the main way I protest is by withholding cash for a long time. No idea if it makes a difference or not, bit I makes me feel warm inside!
As far as fantasy, that system is hurting badly right now. I explained it to a buddy the other day: fantasy was changed way too drastically. It's no where near the same game it was in 7th, so the transition has been downright painful for most of the veteran players. It's like playing a totally different game. 40k 4th to 5th was more manageable because the core mechanics where greatly untouched. Cc was nerfed, los was changed, and vehicles were made more hardy. For the most part, those were the major changes. It was a less painful transition for most players as is evident in the player base steadily growing. Vets were able to pick it up easier and teach nubs how to play, so on so forth... fantasy currently everyone is a nub and who wants to start from scratch again?
Lucky me I've been waiting for tomb kings to make a grand entrance....

I've played that game with him before C. $$$ is all he understands.

If GW has abandon it's own product line, I doubt Joel would pickup the difference.

Who destroyed the terrain?

For me, it was NEVER about Joel, it was about the gaming community. The major issues are GW the company and the community. Joel's lethargic involvement is secondary.

jerryb wrote:If GW has abandon it's own product line, I doubt Joel would pickup the difference.

Who destroyed the terrain?

For me, it was NEVER about Joel, it was about the gaming community. The major issues are GW the company and the community. Joel's lethargic involvement is secondary.

I highly doubt it's GW since it appears that no game has lasted at Sunshine. They all go through phases, come and go for various reasons. FoW was big for a while and then nearly died out, then it picked up again and it's tempered off some once more. PP games were going on for a bit and then died off because of community issues.

40k has been the most sustainable game at Sunshine over the years, so it's not really a GW issue as much as the players themselves varying tastes and Joel causing issues within the communities scaring people away. It seems like every few months a new person says they are not going to play at the shop anymore or take the community elsewhere because of Joel.

Also Fantasy drying up is nothing new, the game has always played distant second fiddle to 40k in most stores with communities popping up for campaign and then dissapearing for long periods of time, it just never has had wide long term lasting power community wise and was heavily hurt by the Warmachine/Hordes games taking up a big chunk of the non 40K player base.

Ding ding ding! Winner winner chicken dinner

I think its 8th edition in terms of fantasy. Up here people just don't' want to play it, myself included.

So Joel is backing off tournament support for Fantasy due to the lackluster participation, is that correct? And it is not because of GW is giving less prize support, true? If so, I mis-understood the link Shadow presented.

I think the logical way to do prize support is to give propionate to the turn out, a lot of players show up then give a lot of prizes.

Although Joel is his own worst enemy, nevertheless ALL of the blame can not be placed at his feet. If you are in a state of denial the true source of the problem, then it will never be solved regardless of what store exist and how it is run.

Who destroyed the terrain.

What Joel said (if I understand Nate correctly) is that all of the monthly prize support now goes to 40k and if we want to have a fantasy event it will not include prize support except for what we all pitch in and minus what Joel takes out.

The Eldar Guy wrote:I think its 8th edition in terms of fantasy. Up here people just don't' want to play it, myself included.

Whats wrong with 8th edition?

ShadowMaster wrote:What Joel said (if I understand Nate correctly) is that all of the monthly prize support now goes to 40k and if we want to have a fantasy event it will not include prize support except for what we all pitch in and minus what Joel takes out.

yep....sadly


alot of people dont like its cause their old power game lists dont work and the edition does not favor Tournaments

rokassan wrote:

The Eldar Guy wrote:I think its 8th edition in terms of fantasy. Up here people just don't' want to play it, myself included.

Whats wrong with 8th edition?

Nothing really.

Honestly Ive heard thats(Power gaming) what slows tournament attendance and gaming in general. People get tired of the power gamers and simply dont come anymore. The same group of people win the tournaments for the most part...so why bother.
So I guess if power gaming has been curtailed those guys wont show up, hence the drought.

FoW sales and attendance have died down as well. Give 40k a few more years and it'll be gone. Their raising their prices again in June and have told Joel they will continue to as long as people buy their shit. A Landraider is $62(rip off) imagine the price in 3 years after 3 consecutive price hikes. $70...$75....$80? Fuck that.

The problem with power gaming in Fantasy , is that everybody can't do it. In 7th most armies, COULDN"T compete with others. 8th helped 1 or 2 armies out, but in other cases, it made the gap even larger. So your shitty army in 7th got worse in 8th? WTFRFOLCOPTER? Compound that with "powergaming" changing molds: i.e. literally making 7th lists useless, and you have a nation of gamers needing to hand out loads of cash to make their army work again. GW you magnificent bastard! If only we weren't retarded as you had hoped....

Very true, you hit it on the head.

Personally, I played fantasy for the tactical maneuvering of charging and combat. My list has changed from no magic and light shooting to 90 crossbowmen and L4 and L2 wizards to remain a competitive list (ie. not get smoked the second the army is on the table).

Up here the general consensus is the rules are nubbed up. Premeasuring, random charge distance, almost no penalty for failed charges, no redirect, no LOS blocking terrain, terrain that kills you, Initiative doesn't matter, being the charger has little advantage, and dominating spells are among some of the problems.

Warmachines and huge stubborn blocks of cheap infantry/durable infantry(LD10 stubborn, rerollable LD, Scaven slaves) are both considered really effective units. On the other hand Calvary and skirmishers are in comparison, worthless. The effectiveness gap between these unit types are staggering; making narrow, in my opinion boring, selection of unit choices.

All in all I think it is far less of a thinking man's game, if it ever was one, and more of a 'beer and pretzels' game GW spouts about. I've won nearly half my games on the first/second turns and nearly half my losses have been on the first/second turn. Not the kind of game I'm interested in.

WoW. Very telling.

The Eldar Guy wrote:Personally, I played fantasy for the tactical maneuvering of charging and combat. My list has changed from no magic and light shooting to 90 crossbowmen and L4 and L2 wizards to remain a competitive list (ie. not get smoked the second the army is on the table).

Up here the general consensus is the rules are nubbed up. Premeasuring, random charge distance, almost no penalty for failed charges, no redirect, no LOS blocking terrain, terrain that kills you, Initiative doesn't matter, being the charger has little advantage, and dominating spells are among some of the problems.

Warmachines and huge stubborn blocks of cheap infantry/durable infantry(LD10 stubborn, rerollable LD, Scaven slaves) are both considered really effective units. On the other hand Calvary and skirmishers are in comparison, worthless. The effectiveness gap between these unit types are staggering; making narrow, in my opinion boring, selection of unit choices.

All in all I think it is far less of a thinking man's game, if it ever was one, and more of a 'beer and pretzels' game GW spouts about. I've won nearly half my games on the first/second turns and nearly half my losses have been on the first/second turn. Not the kind of game I'm interested in.

I agree with most of this except.....
No games end on turn one or two in fantasy. Your barely in combat at that point.

You were never light in shooting (2xbow units, 2 rider units, 2 shade units, assassins with stars). Dream on dude. Additionally, 180 xbow shots won't get you many pick up games Chris.

I used a single 10man unit of crossbowmen. Yes, I had shooting in the list but it was primarily combat. Those shades for instance killed more in combat than with shooting.

Games end on turn 1 with irresistible Purple Suns from a Supreme Sorceress on Pegasus at the flank.

My losses by turn 2 were from warmachine spam.

rokassan wrote:FoW sales and attendance have died down as well.

That happened before, I'm sure FoW will bounce back as long as Joel doesn't scare everyone away. And really you see it with most gaming communities... alot of which are very sensitive to change. You get one person who quits and ends up taking close friends with him off the game or to another store, and you see a dramatic change to the local player base. Gamers are touchy subjects

rokassan wrote:
Honestly Ive heard thats(Power gaming) what slows tournament attendance and gaming in general. People get tired of the power gamers and simply dont come anymore. The same group of people win the tournaments for the most part...so why bother.
So I guess if power gaming has been curtailed those guys wont show up, hence the drought.

it did drive away alot of the player base. Before the tournaments that joel wanted us to run we have at lest 6 people every sunday. Some times up to 12 people. Once the Tournaments became monthly we dont have a day any more. I mean if that does not show something i dont know what does.

@at Shadowmaster I lost a game to you by turn two. Cruse the person who though up Blood and Glory and man did i roll crappy. And i do agree try and find some one that wants a pick up game against that.

if you flank slaves they go back to stubborn on a 2 FYI

Not all Calvary sucks. Dan and I have been having rather success with them. I know my Khrone knights cut thru him rather nicely at a few home games. I will agree the skirmishers are not what they once where, they have been weaken with every new edition. But they still have the uses. Gutter Runners still rock and Flames still rock. Oh and Flying Calvary in every game i have played with them or against them they still do well for themselves. At the end of the day its all about adapting to new tactics. If you try and play in the past then you will become the past.

Besides i doubt GW would openly fuck over one of their main armies. Lets ask dan how they are fairing. Oh what he has only lost 2 games out 10 with them this edition. Same as last

I want to know what the differences is between some of Pick-up lists vs Tournament lists. For the most part i have noticed they are the same list. Which is why i found 40k boring as shit....

If i ever run another tournament i am going to do it with ETC rules, change shit up on some folks

Kyle wrote:

rokassan wrote:FoW sales and attendance have died down as well.

That happened before, I'm sure FoW will bounce back as long as Joel doesn't scare everyone away. And really you see it with most gaming communities... alot of which are very sensitive to change. You get one person who quits and ends up taking close friends with him off the game or to another store, and you see a dramatic change to the local player base. Gamers are touchy subjects

joel scare people away....never.