General Fantasy Help

Nate made an offer to help me L2P fantasy and to help me build my army. I'm going to take him up on the offer, but I need help making a list first. No sense in dropping cash without a plan. This is what I've come up with so far. Blow it up if needed.

2500 Pts - Tomb Kings Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2497

Arkhan the Black (1#, 360 pts)
1 Arkhan the Black, 360 pts

Necrotect (1#, 75 pts)
1 Necrotect, 60 pts
1 Gold Sigil Sword, 15 pts

Tomb Herald (1#, 137 pts)
1 Tomb Herald (Battle Standard Bearer), 87 pts = (base cost 60 + Shield 2 + Battle Standard Bearer 25)
1 Standard of the Undying Legion, 50 pts

Liche Priest (1#, 105 pts)
1 Liche Priest, 105 pts = (base cost 70 + Level 2 Upgrade 35)

Liche Priest (1#, 105 pts)
1 Liche Priest, 105 pts = (base cost 70 + Level 2 Upgrade 35)

Skeleton Warriors (40#, 220 pts)
39 Skeleton Warriors, 209 pts = 39 * 5 (base cost 4 + Light Armour 1) + Master of Arms Sarge 15 + Musician Mus 10
1 Master of Arms, 11 pts = (base cost 10 + Light Armour 1)

Skeleton Chariots (9#, 175 pts)
3 Skeleton Chariots, 175 pts = 3 * 55 (base cost 55) + Standard Bearer Std 10

Skeleton Chariots (9#, 175 pts)
3 Skeleton Chariots, 175 pts = 3 * 55 (base cost 55) + Standard Bearer Std 10

Skeleton Horse Archers (5#, 70 pts)
5 Skeleton Horse Archers, 70 pts = 5 * 14

Ushabti (6#, 320 pts)
6 Ushabti, 320 pts = 6 * 50 (base cost 50) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10

Tomb Scorpion (1#, 85 pts)
1 Tomb Scorpion, 85 pts

Tomb Scorpion (1#, 85 pts)
1 Tomb Scorpion, 85 pts

Necrosphinx (1#, 225 pts)
1 Necrospinx, 225 pts

Necrosphinx (1#, 225 pts)
1 Necrospinx, 225 pts

Casket of Souls (4#, 135 pts)
1 Casket of Souls, 135 pts


Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 360 (0 - 625)
Points of Heroes: 422 (0 - 625)
Points of Core: 640 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 490 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 585 (0 - 625)

NOTE: For some reason it wasn't listed, but one Liche runs Lore of Light; the other Nekeharan Lore.

Arkhan the Black (1#, 360 pts) - You don't want your general AND hierophant exposed in a Chariot or chariot unit. You want them safe in a big block of infantry.

Tomb Herald (1#, 137 pts) - TK get very little benefit from a BSB (undead do not break)
Standard of the Undying Legion, 50 pts - GREAT item!

2xLiche Priest (1#, 105 pts) - With a level 4 (or 5 with Arkhan), you don't need any other casters. These are basicly 210 points worth of attempts to channel. The only reason to add one would be for the dispel scroll or another must have Arcane item (no need for level 2 to carry a scroll).

Skeleton Chariots (9#, 175 pts) - I'd mix these into one unit and add a Prince on Chariot to help lead them.

Skeleton Horse Archers (5#, 70 pts) - NO.

Ushabti (6#, 320 pts) - Great models, but again, not the best option.

Tomb Scorpion (1#, 85 pts) - In 7th these were gold. Loss of charge when surfacing and one less wound nerfed them pretty hard in 8th.

Necrosphinx (1#, 225 pts) - Warsphinx is better

Casket of Souls (4#, 135 pts) - YES!

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Tomb Guard - You want a BIG BRICK of these killers

Screaming Skull Catapults - One of the best warmachines in the game. Any casulties cause a panic test and they can be fired multiple times with TK magic.

Thanks for the input Bill. Couple of questions if you wouldn't mind; what makes the warsphinx better than the necrosphinx? Arkhan is actually on foot and goes in the clump of skeleton warriors , will that suffice or should I switch him around? I was thinking of running 2 caskets, but didn't know if it wasn't needed.
I have all the models for the first list, but wouldn't mind switching things around to make a sweet list. It seems like tomb kings can manage to be good at all three phases ( magic, shooting, cc) but not at once in the same list. Am I off in this observation? If not which phase (or 2) should I concentrate on? If I am, how would I go about squeezing in an effective force encompassing all 3?

Looked over the new special character rules in AB -

The advantage of Arkham is he covers both of your character requirements and he is a level 5 caster. You might miss the TK lore, but you get a sick level 5 death wizard (focus on character sniper spells) and more points for troops.

The Visionary looks like a cool Hero level SC - Frenzy and Hatred to the unit is sick.
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Caskets add dice and open up the lanes for other spells to get through; however, they can also be dispelled for no offensive effect. Catapults can always shoot (sans misfire penalty).
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A Prince in a chariot with the chariot unit makes them all WS5 (including steeds). When mixed with impact, that's alot of free and easy hits.
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Necrosphinx - 5 S5 WS4 attacks, or one S10 Heroic Killing Blow hit, plus thunderstomp. Init 1, so it has to live through the enemy monster attack to take big advantage of the HCB. Max damage vs infantry units is 11 wounds (5 attack and 6 thunderstomp). 15 points more.

Warsphinx - 4 S5 WS4 attacks, or 1 Thundercrush (Center hole can snipe characters in the 2nd row) attack to hit 9-12 models (depending on base). 4 S4 Killing blow attacks from the unkillable crew (+1 Str on charge). Thunderstomp. Max damage vs infantry units is 24 wounds. (1D3, 11 thundercrush, 4 crew, and 6 thunderstomp).
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The TK magic is really stong and great for keeping your units up. I'd build around a strong regenerating melee line with some support monsters and a few warmachines. Outside of the SSC, TK shooting doesn't have enough range or punch to focus too many points into it.

arkhan the black can be fielded on foot, if you do this make sure he is in either tomb gaurd or skeltions

The horse archers are a maybe... but i would hold off on using them for now.

warsphinxs are great for they are a can break blocks, dont forget they get a breate weapon as well which they could use in close combat. So you would get this 2d6 attacks with breathe weapon, then normal attacks or thundercrush, then thunderstomp!!!! Oh and you have the crew.

The Necrosphinx i cant say that much for i have not seen them being used nor have any of the other fourms talked about them. Major problem with the Tomb Kings is that only a handful of players out there. This is also a good thing becuase that means there is not they many net lists out there so you will be able to get people of gaurd.
Nercosphinx and warsphinx (same box)

Chariots in one big unit is a good idea, just remember taht cannons will traget them quick as shit. Maybe 6 in one and 3 in another with out command....

Magic and Close Combat should be the focus, but shooting is always a good idea. For Watch tower having 20 bows never hurts. but just rememeber it's all up to you and what you want to field

what is the point size your aimming for??

we play from 2,000 to 2,500 but we do and can go larger....

OMG - I missed the Breath Weapon upgrade for 20 points.
Yup - Warsphinx - NO CONTEST. Run 2!

These days I'd build for 3k so you can play in Ard Boyz. You can always peal down.

Typing this from my phone so forgive any auto corrects.
With the given advice I re worked the list and put in models I like with good synergy.

Arkhan 360

Liche priest + steed+ lore of death- 80
Along with arkhan and an accompanied skelly horse archers , I pray for a first turn purple sun at the nasty opposing unit.

Liche priest + lore of nekehara-70
Liche priest + lore of nekehara-70
Both go in a unit of skellies and spam the signature spell.

Necrotect-60
Necrotect- 60

30 skeleton warriors + full command+ light armor- 180
30 skeleton warriors + full command + light armor- 180
30 skeleton warriors + full command + light armor- 180
5 skeleton horse archers+ musician + standard- 90

Warsphinx+ roar
Warsphinx + roar
Warsphinx + roar

Colossus
Colossus
Casket of souls

The plan is arkhan in the central block of skeletons. Warsphinx to either side. Block of skellies with Liche and necrotect to each side of the sphinxs. That makes my center block. Additional sphinx goes where my opponent might overwhelm my lines and colossi have flank protection duties. Casket in the back going pewpew booboo. Thoughts?

I'm not a fan of the Bone Giant aka Colossus

You still need a horde of Tomb Guard. Killing Blow makes every model a danger to enemy characters.

That one named Necrotech is better than 2 vanilla. Add him and a TK to the TG = My Will Be Done + Frenzy + Hatred + Halberds + Killing Blow

Extra attack (Frenzy)
Hit on 3s (MWBD)
Reroll misses (Hatred)
S5 with Killing Blow!
Don't forget your Banner of Undying Legion here!

NOTE on the Lich Priests - anything not cast by a level 4+ these days has a low shot of getting through because you'll almost always face a level 4+ on the other side doing the dispeling. This includes bound items like the banner and casket.

Bill Arkhan is level 5. he has got a soild caster. Not true on the always facing a level 4 for dispelling, but it should be considered. My warloard list highest level is alevel 2 as is my rather nasty night goblin army. Also some chaos armies i have dont take any wizards. Dwarves only get plus two to dispell but they get a fuck load of dice. (I am unsure if the anvil does anything for dispel attmpts)

lolz on forgetting the firy roar bill

Note on Clossus, if you use them as a flank charge along with a beefy unit of skeletions your good. If you front charge both of them not so good. The Warsphinx should go in the front with skeletions and if you can send in the bone gaint. That is a crap load of attacks and damage just becarefull what you charge. If its chaos warriors then you might be in trouble still.

How are you arming them??? duel hand weapons right????

I would say add the BSB. Undead be it vampire counts or tomb kings need one it keeps them alive...well sort of alive. The banner of the Undying Legion is siold cheep banner.

Liche Preist, make one a level two to have a back up should you fail a casting. Say one of the ones on foot. Also i would take a dispell Scroll on the other on foot, Even thou you are only allowed one now i still find them usefull. They only army that item is wroth less against is dwarves.

I have found horde units an almost complet waste of time out side of big point games (3k and up). Tomb Gaurd are great but if you want to run the stone wall list i would say you can pass on them, for the moment. When i do horde outside of 3k it's with spearmen. just so i fight in 3 ranks when a charge or 4 when i am charged.

How many points is the named guy???? I was thinking that as well. good thinking bill

A prince is good idea but if you are focusing on magic then you can pass. But just rememeber your oppent will have fighty charaters aswell. Just remmeber that the maxuim dice you can have in your pool is 12 in an normal game

what are you going to do against warmachines?????

I just thought about the warmachine issue and I'm churned out another list. I'm on my way to a call so I'll post it after... Assuming it isn't a cluster....

Right - Arkham is 5 and you'll end up wanting to give him all of your dice once you realize your level 1s can't get their spells off vs. the level 4 defense on the other side. My level 2 Tzeentch Heralds struggle vs. level 4s.

Almost all competitive builds these days include a level 4.

The only reason to bring a lesser mage is for a 2nd arcane item like the Dispel Scroll.

Mages outside of the brick are super exposed. 5 light cav will not protect him long. The average shooting unit can take them right out. Your low level priest has a very low chance of getting the purple sun spell and another very low chance to actually get a purple sun cast off.

Can't arkhan pick his 5 spells first and if he gets purple sun, just switch it for the signature spell? Then the lvl 1 picks his spell and all that's left is purple sun. He's a suicide unit. Either way I keep switching my list around and that didn't make it into the newer lists.

ShadowMaster wrote:Right - Arkham is 5 and you'll end up wanting to give him all of your dice once you realize your level 1s can't get their spells off vs. the level 4 defense on the other side. My level 2 Tzeentch Heralds struggle vs. level 4s.

Almost all competitive builds these days include a level 4.

The only reason to bring a lesser mage is for a 2nd arcane item like the Dispel Scroll.

Mages outside of the brick are super exposed. 5 light cav will not protect him long. The average shooting unit can take them right out. Your low level priest has a very low chance of getting the purple sun spell and another very low chance to actually get a purple sun cast off.

Dwarves are competitive and they dont have level 4s......Also the khrone lists dont use any wizards

Let's take this piece by piece. I think I'd like a level 4 Liche priest with the talisman of preservation and maybe something else though I don't think he needs it. That's 255. If I were to plug a tomb king in for the super unit of blah... How would he be decked out? Another thing that concerns me are spells that wreck deathstar type units. How do tomb kings stop those? That's why I haven't included a deathstar unit in my lists....

KingdomCome wrote:Let's take this piece by piece. I think I'd like a level 4 Liche priest with the talisman of preservation and maybe something else though I don't think he needs it. That's 255. If I were to plug a tomb king in for the super unit of blah... How would he be decked out? Another thing that concerns me are spells that wreck deathstar type units. How do tomb kings stop those? That's why I haven't included a deathstar unit in my lists....

mmmm

I've only lost one 8th edition game to a super spell. It CAN happen, but it doesn't happen as often as the internet legend would make it seem.

Best defense against the super spell is a level 4+ mage and scroll caddy.

Yes - you can use Arkham to get sun on your low level more often than not, and you can dump another 80 into the delivery system; but then what?

You now need to roll a 14+ for the small spell or a 24+ for the big mama. Basicly 6 dice and pray for IF. Anything else probably fails to cast, gets dispeled, or gets beaten on the dispel roll (who is at +4 to your level 1).

IF it goes off (pun intended)

THEN you need to roll well (and not misfire) on the artillary dice to get alot of hits. The 2 times I've cast PSoX, I followed it with a misfire onto my own unit. Providing you don't you'll get some hits. It only effects low init - so elves and other agile creatures laugh it off.

I GUARENTEE you that you'll get more consistant bang for the same points from 2 Skull Catapults (without upgrades).

Arkhan - as General and Hierophant
High lich Priest - lvl 4 TK Lore, Dispel Scroll, Dragonbane Gem, Ironcurse Icon - 245
Ramhotep the Visionary - 110
Tomb Prince - Chariot, Shield, Spear, Armor of Destiny - 209

5 Chariots - Full Command, Banner of Swiftness - 320
40 Skeletons - FC, Light Armor (Mage Bunker 1) - 230
40 Skeletons - FC, Light Armor (Mage Bunker 2) - 230
40 Tomb Guard - FC, Banner of Undying Legion - 520

War Sphinx - Firey Roar - 230
War Sphinx - Firey Roar - 230

Casket of Souls - 135
Screaming Skull Catapult - 90
Screaming Skull Catapult - 90

2999

Yikes Bill ! I know you know what you're doing in fantasy, but that is EXACTLY what I don't want to play. If that's what a good tomb kings army looks like at 3000 points, I don't think I want to play !

I'm not sure that is the best option - might be too many points in high level wizards that could go to another big unit.

What don't you like about it?

It's not what it has, its what it doesn't have. Not your fault , its the book. It doesn't have.... Flavor? It's 3 units of bones , a couple of monsters, and warmachines for taste. It's probably very lethal, but it looks a bit boring. That's why I was going for a bunch of monsters. If anything it would look cool on the board. Maybe I'm being super picky, but it doesn't seem like a lot of things for 3k.

KingdomCome wrote:It's not what it has, its what it doesn't have. Not your fault , its the book. It doesn't have.... Flavor? It's 3 units of bones , a couple of monsters, and warmachines for taste. It's probably very lethal, but it looks a bit boring. That's why I was going for a bunch of monsters. If anything it would look cool on the board. Maybe I'm being super picky, but it doesn't seem like a lot of things for 3k.

i agree with you. That is why i like the your second idea the most. It had some flavor. What do you want use in your army.