Ablative wounds in HE armies

Ok, this is mostly directed at Sam as a continuation of a conversation we had at the last tournament at the Dragon, but any input is appreciated.

Ablative wounds, as I understand it, means taking a certain number of models in my army so that when my units get inevitably shot, they will still maintain a minimum fighting efficiency. With orcs, that is easy, since I can easily have 2 units of 25 orcs + 2-3 units of 25 goblins. My Slaanesh cavalry is T4 and 2+ AS so they exchange ablative wounds for durability.

Now, HE are neither as plentiful as orcs nor tough like chaos knights. The cheapest means of acquiring ablative wounds is in spearmen units (9 pts a model), followed by archers (11 pts a pop). The problem is that having those spearmen units doesn't prevent my opponent from targeting the expensive and almost equally vulnerable elite infantry (white lions and swordmasters). If he decimates those elite units, my remaining spearelves and archers are not fighty enough to hold up to the enemy. So what's the best ablative wounds philosophy for high elves from a army list (not tactics) perspective?

Anyways, gotta go now. I'll continue this later

Matt,
Not everything in the high elf army is super vulnerable like swordmasters. White lions get a 3+ save from normal shooting. Heavy Cav units have a 2+ save. Chariots have high toughness. Phoenix guard have their 4+ ward ,and dragons.. well dragons are dragons.

Also you have to remember that the high elves are probably the fastest army in the game aside from maybe the wood elves. Their cav moves 18 inches and their infantry move 10. So they may not take that many rounds of shooting before closing with the enemy the way orcs and humans do. By turn 3 they are 30 inches up plus the 12 from deployment is all the way across the board.

Also, you have to remember that High Elves have their own shooting, namely bolt throwers that reek havoc on enemy missile troops. Not to mention their own bowmen. and magic of course

One spell in particular works well against missile fire, It's called the Shield of Saphery and not that hard to get off.

well, from what ive seen sam do is that he uses his spearmen VERY agresively, to the point that you HAVE to try to take them out, for this reasons:
a) you dont want them taking a table quarter
b) they are still high elves, if they charge a weak unit they are bound to win, or loose by such a small margin that their high LD will keep them in the fight
c) they move fast! 10 inch charge means that if you are not careful, you now have your big bad unit fighting one of his big bad units flanked by 10 more high elves that will hit first and that will negate your ranks.

and surprisingly enough, the bastards are hard to take out with shooting, since they can dash from cover to cover real fast.

Elves do indeed have many ways to prevent getting shot to pieces. Shield of Saphery is the 1st High magic spell and is cast on a 5+, Lions get 3+ AS vs shooting and can stay inside woods with soft cover, plus a few items give MR and -1 to hit with shooting, etc.

I guess what I was trying to ask (its not clear even to myself ) is how do you build an HE army with ablative wounds (namely spear elves), and how do you get your enemy to actually attack the ablative wounds and not shoot/magick your pricey stuff to death.

I like what Luis says about playing them aggressively, and I do recall seeing Sam's spearelves on the other side of the table on more than one occasion.

Matt, the question is moot. White Lions have a 3+ save. Phoenix guard have a 4+ save, Silver Helms and Dragon Princes have a 2+ save. It is only the Swordmasters that are truly vulnerable, because they don't have the speed of the fast cav units nor the skirmishing bonus of the shadow warriors.

But since Swordmasters really win combat through sheer wounds inflicted, they don't have to remain at 20 strong. In fact, many times I think I've seen Sam take them at 15 strong. As long as you got 5 guys and a standard in that unit, you're looking good at 11 strength 5 attacks hitting on 3's and striking first.

I fail to understand your question. If you field an ork army with 2 units of 25 strong boys and a unit of boar boyz. I'm going to target your boar boyz first, and their's nothing you can do to get me to attack the ablative wounds.

Well, if you shoot your spearmen foward and hold the swordmasters farther back you will have to shoot those spearmen, you dont want them holding you in combat so his stronger units can smash into you, it forces you to split fire, you gotta make a decission between trying to hit the swordmasters that will get to you a turn later, or take out the spearmen that are about to charge you. Thing with the HE spearmen is that they hit with both ranks when they charge, so yeah, they are strgth 3 , but thats a lot of attacks, chances are that they will hold and keep you stuck in combat.

Woodelves i think have the best chance at taking out both targets at the same time, the obscene ammount of shooting they get and their mobility means they can get that firepower where is needed the most, other shoooting armies have more problems because they cant move arround much.

I think the best way would be to use them agresively enough that you are forcign your oponent to try to take them out or have them charge his lines-block line of sight-contest quarters-etc, and besides ,3 blocks of 10 spearmen are Cheap, white lions whill stick arround through anything, phoenix guard with their 4+ ward save will also be arround forever, only weak ones are the swordmasters, but you just really need the front rank to make it and they will shred anything in their path.

Sorry for getting into this late, but my concept on ablative wounds is:

- The ablative wound unit (not models in a unit, but a unit) exists for one purpose...to die. In dying, the hope is that they will pull a more powerful unit out of position so that my combat units can hit it in the flank or simply move past it leaving it out of the game for the maximum number of turns. I know others have different definitions of ablative wounds, but that's mine.

At 2K I have several variant lists...the most common is: 2 units of spear elves (10 men each with musician), 18 Swordmasters (SM) will full command, 14 White Lions (WL) with full command, 2 Dragon Prince (DP) units with full command and 2 bolt throwers, plus a noble and 2 level 2 mages. The last several games/tournaments, I've updated my list to include a 20 man Phoenix Guard (PG) unit (usually taking out the 2 DP units to get it in).

I race my spearmen up as fast as possible, in an attempt to get my opponent to have to attack them, or let them engage my opponent in a manner of my choosing. If my opponent chooses to ignore them and shoot, or move toward my combat units, then they (the spearmen) become a threat to shooters, war machines and the flanks/rear of my opponent's units. At 18-strong, the SM have 13 WS6, S5 attacks, 2 ranks and a banner (often outnumber, after they attack, too), so that unit tends to do well (except against Bill's chosen Chaos Knights of Khorne at this last tournament, but that's to be expected). Each of my combat units is designed to take a unit head on and win, or lose by little enough that the High Elf high leadership will keep them in it longer enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Each game is different, shooty/heavy magic armies give High Elves fits, but I try to use my spearmen/DP (if I take them) to disrupt my opponent's shooting (my spearmen destroyed all three of Cosmo's war machines in our game at this last tournament -- some of that had to do with his inability to roll above a 1 to wound, but they did make it to attack him). I have lots of Magic Resistance in my units, plus usually take several scrolls, and High Elves are +1 to dispell, so I can handle magic for at least 2 turns, normally...exception being Stephan's VC powerdice list of death that doesn't target my units, but builds up his...no way to stop that list for more than one turn (even when he rolls like crap, which he graciously did for me for two turns in our last tournament game).

So, I hope I've helped define ablative wounds in the way I use them...and I hope that helps with list building/gaming. Each person has their own style...what works for me won't for others. It took me a long time to come to the style I use now...it was hard for me to get the idea of having a unit exist to die for the longest time...once I got over it, however, I started doing much better in my games.

Thanks Sam. I'm sure Luis would be proud how Papa Finubar sends the peasant armies of Soviet Ulthuan to die in droves!

I still can't make up my mind whether I want 2 units of archers or 2 units of spearmen. Without the archers, I only get the 2 RBT for shooting. Without the spearmen, I don't have any real throwaway units. I might just take one of each.

Problem with throw away units like spear elves is that it's a waste of points. Let's not forget those guys are 90 point units, they are not cheap.

The problem they also present is that they are easy to make flee from a round of shooting... and if they flee, usually being out of the generals'range, they may flee through a friendly unit or 2... which is a bonus.

Why not just take a chunky unit of Bowmen instead to think out enemy balistics sam?

Diosamblet wrote:. Without the archers, I only get the 2 RBT for shooting. .

Do you NEED any other shooting besides 2 RBTs ?!?! 24 shots a turn !!

Hey! RBT are not your damn screaming skull catapults! Only 6 shots each, ONCE per turn.

Diosamblet wrote:Hey! RBT are not your damn screaming skull catapults! Only 6 shots each, ONCE per turn.

well, they feel like 24 !!!

Ovich wrote:Problem with throw away units like spear elves is that it's a waste of points. Let's not forget those guys are 90 point units, they are not cheap.

You are correct, it is a waste of points, but it's a sacrifice/reward equation. I know I'm going to lose units, I'm just trying to make sure that the ones I lose are the cheapest and provide the greatest return for their investment.

Ovich wrote:The problem they also present is that they are easy to make flee from a round of shooting... and if they flee, usually being out of the general's range, they may flee through a friendly unit or 2... which is a bonus.

Most people do not shoot at them until they are really close to their shooters, as they like to focus on my combat units, so they rarely have to take break tests from shooting.

Ovich wrote:Why not just take a chunky unit of Bowmen instead to think out enemy balistics sam?

I've also found that archers are nigh useless these days. Too many armies are either T4, or have great armor saves to make them worth their points. Plus, the 5+ armor save, if I use spears, with up to 10 attacks, or 4+ armor save if I use hand weapon (HW) and shield, is much better than any benefit a round or two of shooting will give me with a couple archer units. Plus, archer units tend to be mostly immoble, so cannot support my combat units in the way I would like.

With the 2 RBTs shooting 12 shots at S4 armor piercing at 48 inches, I tend to have all the shooting I need. Would rather spend the 100 points on another RBT, then a unit of archers if I needed more shooting.

As I mentioned earlier, each person has their style. I like to use my spears to support my combat troops and have two warmachines to soften my opponents support troops (usually go after the softer units like fast cav, or small units, as it's easier to make them ineffective in a supporting role). Stephan does very well with his Empire with meaty blocks of swordmen, with 10 man shooter detachments, or his Wood Elves with dryad supported by his cav and some shooters. Chris does well with the same formula for his Wood Elves, too. I prefer the sacrficial units, which should help my combat units get the most bang for their buck (at least that's the plan...until the dice get rolled).

That's whats great about wood elves.... every unit is potential sacrificial.

Dryads are 96 points... GG are 120... Great Eagles 50... Wwatchers are 125. .. Noting except a kitted out unit WRiders or a chunky unit of EG are over 200 pts. Well treemen and treeekin of course..

Nothing beats Skaven slaves as sacrificial units, 40 points for 20 guys !

yeah.. but the only problem with that is that they flee from anything that causes fear.

Ovich wrote:yeah.. but the only problem with that is that they flee from anything that causes fear.

thats the whole idea behind slaves, causes you to fail charge so i can then flank you

Which you did to great affect in our game...just ASF with great weapons isn't so nice for Skaven...Chosen Chaos Knights just laugh it off with the 1+ save, but Skaven...not so much!

I screwed up in our battle, i shouldve NEVER charged you in the rear and flank at the same time, flank charge gives me 3 or so elves hitting back, flank AND rear, gives me 2 elves on the side and all 5 on the back ! and you rolled disgustingly well ...

luis the young wrote:I screwed up in our battle, i shouldve NEVER charged you in the rear and flank at the same time, flank charge gives me 3 or so elves hitting back, flank AND rear, gives me 2 elves on the side and all 5 on the back ! and you rolled disgustingly well ...

You're skaven...I could have rolled like crap and still hurt you! But, yes, you are correct...hitting either SM or WL in the front or rear is never a good idea because it maximizes my ASF cheese, hitting in the flank, however, that's a much better idea.

Next time i'll just kick you in the nads and then call a game a win by me because you are unable to continue. IS THE SKAVEN WAY !

either that or use my 8 chariot, 2 giant orc list !

luis the young wrote:Next time i'll just kick you in the nads and then call a game a win by me because you are unable to continue. IS THE SKAVEN WAY !

either that or use my 8 chariot, 2 giant orc list !

I prefer option 2...

Pardon my newbiness, but if you're attacked from the rear its the same as being attacked in the front? I thought getting hit in the rear was a very bad thing (though its never been explained to me why)... I understand that if you hit someone in the flank only the rank number gets to react... But I figured if you were hit in the rear you wouldn't be able to react or something catastrophic like that.

Actually, Leviticus, the only reason for hitting someone in the rear is to get that +2 combat resolution bonus. It also negates their shield+Hw armour bonus.

In some cases, like with attacking a cavalry unit, ogre sized monsters, or infantry that have been whittled down, it's better to hit the unit in the flank, because the defenders will not get to hit back with as many attacks.

In the example above, Luis was saying that he should not have done a combined flank and rear attack on a unit of Swordmasters. He's saying he should have only done the flank charge, because this way, only 1 swordmaster would have been able to swing first (because of H elves ASF)

Because he also chose to hit the unit in the rear.. all the elves being engaged in the rear got to swing first, because of ASF.. thereby killing more of Luis' ratmen.

Does that make sense ?

Absolutely... I literally just read the rulebook twice, and the game makes MUCH more sense to me. Luis took a risky encounter to try and stack bonuses (+2 for rear, +1 for rank) in the hopes that the bonuses will compensate for losses... But at WS 6 with 2 attacks a pop, those swordmasters are (seemingly) really nasty in CC!

Thanks for clarification!