Sign up for Fantasy on 3/1/09

So whos gonna be reviewing the lists since both judges are gonna be playing also ?

We are on the honor system

ShadowMaster wrote:We are on the honor system

I'll bring the Dispell Bat just in case someone gets 'creative', it makes the target suffer from Stupidity for the rest of the game.

Me and stephan will check lists after the tournament. To make sure everyone brings a legal list, we will take a miniature of our choosing from your army, and keep it as a hostage, to be returned once we clear your list. If we find a mistake, the miniature will be sold on eBay, and the money kept for the next tournament's prize support.

oh well, so 7 players so far. I guess Stephan will just have to step out and watch from the sidelines yet again

No problem with this, but then I get all the loot.

Alright people, tournament's tomorrow! Since me and Stephan are participating, we won't be checking lists. Please bring a copy for yourself, one for us, and one for each of your opponents (to be given at the end of the round you played).

Stephan, correct me if I'm wrong, but should we ask people to show up by 11.30 at the latest so we can start at noon?

Yes.

What was top 3? Marc and I are thinking of playing in this to get practice for the Ard Boyz.

WC_Brian wrote:What was top 3? Marc and I are thinking of playing in this to get practice for the Ard Boyz.

Winners were:

Bill with Demons - 1rst Place
Matt with Lizardmen -2nd Place
Luis (me ) with Skaven - 3rd Place

Demons won again? Even against the "broken" lizard men. Obviously Bill is a great player, but what is it about the Demon army that makes them so difficult to beat...other than Duke William of the Cleaved Soul.

Daemons are tough for many reasons...

1) They do not break...nor do they truly crumble...they get the best of both worlds...if they lose combat they get leadership minus combat resolution, roll 2D6 and if the roll is higher than the modified leadership, they lose that number of models (if they roll double 1's, they lose nothing).

2) Units can be made stubborn for at least one break test meaning that they won't lose more than 4 models from "instability," regardless of combat resolution and their roll -- making it easy to setup flank charges because they know a unit will not blow through them in one turn. A BSB can have a banner that makes all units within 12" stubborn...also granting them a re-roll for instability...

3) Very powerful characters -- especially when considering a point for ability analysis

4) An entire army with a 5+ ward save at all times...not just against non-magical attacks -- and, every character comes default with a 5+ ward save...I have to pay 25 points to give just one of my characters a 5+ ward save...if the Daemon character is Tzeentch it's a 4+, or Nurgle, it's a 5+ ward, 4+ regen...I have to pay 55 points to get one character a 4+ ward save, and none, other than Tyrion can get regen

5) Many fast moving units (mostly Slaanesh, but they have some of the best goodies -- Siren Song being one of them, and the Masque)

6) Combinations that are silliness in the extreme (leadership bombs [-2 Ld Banner and the Masque] combined with Siren Song, combined with a Bloodthirster, etc.)

7) Unlike undead, they have units that are both killing machines and resilient

Bill is an outstanding general, so please, Bill, don't think I'm trying to knock your generalship. Daemons, do, however, allow someone to make mistakes and not have it cost them near as much as other armies. I lost my first game ever to someone up here, who was using a Daemon army (I've been playing the guy semi-regularly for 4 years and had never lost to him prior to his taking Daemons...I'm now 2-3 against his Daemons and 9-0 against all his other armies, even the new Warriors of Chaos list). So, Daemons in the hands of a good general like Bill...a really tough nut to crack! I'm even 6-2 against the new Lizardmen (my 2 losses were less than 2000 points and I was facing 2 Ancient Stegs, one of which was the Engine of the Gods).

You've never lost a game before playing demons? How have you managed that? I know youve played people as good if not better than you, so High elves are some broken motherfuckers. Or there are blocks of cheese around when you play. I find that very hard to believe...but I believe you.Goddamn. Remind me to never waste my time playing you.

Well let me start with saying that Sam is a rediculously good player. HE are a top tier army and in his hands it is understandable that he wouldn't loose to often.

I take no offense to the knocking of Daemons - I think the internet reputation has extended beyond the reality, but I agree that they are a very tough army.

I disagree that it is the ward save that makes them so good. Instability can cause wounds, so it is close to crumbling. Due to cost, DoC units tend to be small and a few wounds can be a large percentage of the unit.

Where DoC excel is in their design and their toys.

Design
Every troop type is built to do their job ram tough.
HoN in a PB unit is the anvil tarp pit of tar pits.

'Letters, hounds, and crushers all hammer with the best of them. Hatred, high strength, high movement.

Core horror units are free extra mages.

The seekers with movement 10 are faster than any other ground light cav unit and they have more attacks than most to boot. They are perfectly designed for light cav roles of hitting shooters and artillary early.

I don't think we need to cover the shooting effectiveness of flamers.

Toys
Again, GW gave DoC almost the perfect item for any given situation. The stubborn banner is nice, but it costs 125 points and others can get that type of item. Better items are the Standard of Sundering which is -2 to casting lore of my choice (used after you declare spell lore choice) and the Siren Standard which forces the shooters to hold while your light cav hits from 20" out.

Armor of Khorne is AS3 - the best base armor in the game
The Jugger is -3 to character armor saves - best in the game
Master of Sorcery allows mages to pick any lore and know all spells

GW just built every DoC unit in a way that was perfect to do it's job. I've run different lists and different troops all with success. It is almost Warhammer for Dummies, because as long as you use units for the job they were designed for your almost guarenteed success. It would take multiple mistakes and a load of bad dice to loose.

Part of the reason to start the DoC army was to test the reputation. While I'd like to think I've grown to be a strong player over the past 1.5 years of playing this game - I'm certainly not at a win 4 straight tourneys level. I must admit that the army factors heavily into the results. Properly played DoC are just super tough to beat.

I'm going to use them for the 2500 point touney at Tate's at the end of April and MAYBE for 'Ard Boyz - but otherwise they are only coming out on request from my opponent. Consider me a Tomb King player.

Bill (Rok), Sam was saying that he hadn't yet lost to THAT PARTICULAR player, not ever in his life.


As for Demons, they are pretty tough and its true, both for what Sam and Pem. Bill has stated.

The Demons and Warriors of course were always insanely powerful (I thought) if you had the option of mixing the gods together. With the old ways (fluff or gaming balance) you forced your chaos players to choose one or two gods and trying to make up for those weaknesses.

However, when you can take the best of each and combine it together, it's like taking all the best qualities of the 3 elven races and making an army with it. At least thats how I see it.

Either way, they are a tough army and thats been proven world-wide, not just in Miami.

Bill did you like the title I've bestowed upon you?

rokassan wrote:Bill did you like the title I've bestowed upon you?

Duke William of the Cleaved Soul. Demonic General of Chaos undivided.

Love It!

I have a personality for each of my armies. I added to your title.

Now you need one for your Tau, Tomb Kings and Warriors of Chaos. After which you proceed to talk shit in the Guise of whatever Army your leading at the time. Kinda like I do.

rokassan wrote:You've never lost a game before playing demons? How have you managed that? I know youve played people as good if not better than you, so High elves are some broken motherfuckers. Or there are blocks of cheese around when you play. I find that very hard to believe...but I believe you.Goddamn. Remind me to never waste my time playing you.

Bill, I'd never lost a game against this one player before he started playing Daemons...he's a good general (for the most part), but is impatient when playing, which I've typically been able to use to my advantage when playing against him (this was before the Elves were broken). He usually played Bretonnians or Skaven. Lately, I've had more difficulty because Daemons are so forgiving and he's able to adjust when he gets out of position much more easily. I know the High Elves are broken, but not as much as the Daemons.

I normally used to beat the guy with no Lords and 2 or fewer RBTs at 2250 points...so no Dragon either. I don't think my lists were overly cheesy (at least I never heard that, prior to the new book). For the record, I've tended to win roughly 85% of the "competitive" games I've played -- I'm closer to 50% for games that were training games, or JFF games.