Tournament or not

WAAC what the fuck does that mean???

They are rules done up for the European Tournament, which is rather large and well received.

@at kyle, not true. that is what makes it interesting. the ETC is the largest tournament in the world. What kills a game is a combo between a store and player base.


@chris, lol. The funny thing is that my dark elf list is legal...lol then again the whole army is for sale

WAAC = Win At All Costs

Heh, I'm kinda glad I didn't know what that phrase meant.

Honestly some folks can do what they want when it comes to running an event. If people don't like the way someone runs an event, you've got really one of three options.

1. Run an event that you think will get more people.

2. Complain to Joel so that he doesn't ask that person to run anymore events.

3. Don't go.

Option 4 of course is to attend and give your thoughts about it. I don't mean to sound rude about it but Nate is offering to run an event but he wants to change things up a little. The ETC rules do not actually change any aspect of the actual game itself, just simply limit your options for army selection. There are many tournaments across this country and the world that do these sorts of things, and if the players don't like it, then they just don't show up (after trying to convince them to change it).

After some thought, I think that I like the idea of having these restrictions. Mainly because it means that many of us will have to design and play with a different type of list then we are used to (hell, even Nate is effected by this with several of his armies). I feel like it strengthens our generalship by being placed in different situations and circumstances.


So, ultimately, if you really don't like the rules he posted and want to truly speak your mind about it, tell Joel or somebody else that you would have attended, but you don't like the restrictions involved in the tournament. But hey, then we can't say that people aren't doing anything at Joel's for Fantasy, we just can say "we don't like how Fantasy is happening at Joel's" which is a different thing all together.


On a side note, is there a date picked for this event yet, so I can attempt to get some wife clearance?

Good points. Me personally, I am biased I guess since my only miniwargamming experience has been 40k. We are lucky in those respects since everyone there really seems good natured and welcoming. Though most seem to bring the best ass beater list they can. The competitive nature of 40k in our group stems from a constant running of tourneys. Problem I imagine for fantasy is that most of the fantasy guys are older and just have too many other responsibilities. My suggestion is maybe have real small fantasy tournaments every month to start. I say maybe 1000points? Easier for newbies to start and learn rules and I am guessing things are somewhat more balanced at smaller list sizes?

Dice_Runt wrote:

@at kyle, not true. that is what makes it interesting. the ETC is the largest tournament in the world. What kills a game is a combo between a store and player base.

Oh really? Because all the major gaming blogs and podcasts are talking about the waning popularity and troubles with WFB tournaments all over. Just because it's what the biggest tournament in the world uses, doesn't mean much when the game is suffering elsewhere. Obviously the biggest game is going to attract the most players. These massive house ruling setups are constantly brought up as a major point showing whats wrong. GW is at fault no doubt with how they changed the game, but this is also not making things better either.

ShadowMaster wrote:WAAC = Win At All Costs

ah power gaming lists. main reason why about 10 people left.. reason why i stopped playing 40k

Death_Company_Orks wrote:I agree with kingdom, i say that the game of fantasy needs to be play by the new rules or its pointless to play it. new players arent going to do well in tournaments with special rules and if they do then when they need to play with regular rules they are going to suck and get discourage from the game. in my opinion nate is doing a great job at trying to unite all the fantasy factions out there so that fantasy can become a regular part of gaming at sunshine like it used to be and thats great but i dont think with "house"rules or ETC you are going to be able to do it.

i say run the tournament with the new edition rules that way everybody feels like its a fair job. no offence but i personaly feel that making up your own rules falls under the assumtion that people close to you or people that helped you with this rules will benefit from them better than those that just heard them at the tournament or in the forum. Again i think that by doing this you will make the people want to go play 40k or FOW where the rules are the same, only the mission changes.

um everytime i have done things with force org mod. i have had people show and enjoy themselves

Kyle wrote:

Dice_Runt wrote:

@at kyle, not true. that is what makes it interesting. the ETC is the largest tournament in the world. What kills a game is a combo between a store and player base.

Oh really? Because all the major gaming blogs and podcasts are talking about the waning popularity and troubles with WFB tournaments all over. Just because it's what the biggest tournament in the world uses, doesn't mean much when the game is suffering elsewhere. Obviously the biggest game is going to attract the most players. These massive house ruling setups are constantly brought up as a major point showing whats wrong. GW is at fault no doubt with how they changed the game, but this is also not making things better either.

how so??? I mean yea jeff from podhammer that has bitched but the rest of them are still hitting up the tournament sence and are enjoying the new game system. and how does this answer what i said above????

Umm.. 40k scene currently super rocks right now. I know Joel would rather not give prize support to either a three or four man fantasy tournament. I am just saying that it's hard to bring new blood to the hobby when regular tournament size armies are very expensive to put together only to have it neutered with house rules. 40k died for a little bit last year and I did my best to bring in more players with small kill team tourneys. Some of those guys are regulars now. In fantasy we have basically a new game with new rules. Let's start small and make it easy for newbies to compete and build out local base. Then we can maybe go to what you're trying to do know at a later date.

Dice_Runt wrote:

Kyle wrote:

Dice_Runt wrote:

@at kyle, not true. that is what makes it interesting. the ETC is the largest tournament in the world. What kills a game is a combo between a store and player base.

Oh really? Because all the major gaming blogs and podcasts are talking about the waning popularity and troubles with WFB tournaments all over. Just because it's what the biggest tournament in the world uses, doesn't mean much when the game is suffering elsewhere. Obviously the biggest game is going to attract the most players. These massive house ruling setups are constantly brought up as a major point showing whats wrong. GW is at fault no doubt with how they changed the game, but this is also not making things better either.

how so??? I mean yea jeff from podhammer that has bitched but the rest of them are still hitting up the tournament sence and are enjoying the new game system. and how does this answer what i said above????

You don't see how a person who buys into this game and then goes to a tournament and is handed a HUGE list of special rules is no discouraging? It shows a major problem with the game system itself, and a divide amongst the community about how the game should be played and large part of it comes from the old guard not happy with how the game changed. And sadly these house ruling tourny faqs are just going to get bigger over time, they don't get smaller.

Of course there are people who don't care and will enjoy the game no matter what, but doesn't change that its become a common complain all over how the game is suffering and tournament play/attendance has become a mess. The tourny scene for WFB has been hit, the new edition sales also seem to have fallen flat on GW's face as despite being a big product launch, it didn't help GW financially at all and things went south for them last fiscal report, while apparently price increases on products generated more revenue than a new edition of Fantasy.

Some people will be fine no doubt, thats good for them, but lets not act like these giant house rule tournament sets aren't a deterrent for many others as well.

I know of at least four fantasy players who will not be attending any tournaments because they can't afford a full 2k list. I seriously doubt they will run out and buy more minis just to be able to compete in a house rules tourney. Have an event they can compete in with the rules they have been eager to learn and I bet they might show up. Maybe they might even build and buymore plastic in eagerness of the following tourney.

Kyle wrote:

Dice_Runt wrote:

Kyle wrote:

Dice_Runt wrote:

@at kyle, not true. that is what makes it interesting. the ETC is the largest tournament in the world. What kills a game is a combo between a store and player base.

Oh really? Because all the major gaming blogs and podcasts are talking about the waning popularity and troubles with WFB tournaments all over. Just because it's what the biggest tournament in the world uses, doesn't mean much when the game is suffering elsewhere. Obviously the biggest game is going to attract the most players. These massive house ruling setups are constantly brought up as a major point showing whats wrong. GW is at fault no doubt with how they changed the game, but this is also not making things better either.

how so??? I mean yea jeff from podhammer that has bitched but the rest of them are still hitting up the tournament sence and are enjoying the new game system. and how does this answer what i said above????

You don't see how a person who buys into this game and then goes to a tournament and is handed a HUGE list of special rules is no discouraging? It shows a major problem with the game system itself, and a divide amongst the community about how the game should be played and large part of it comes from the old guard not happy with how the game changed. And sadly these house ruling tourny faqs are just going to get bigger over time, they don't get smaller.

Of course there are people who don't care and will enjoy the game no matter what, but doesn't change that its become a common complain all over how the game is suffering and tournament play/attendance has become a mess. The tourny scene for WFB has been hit, the new edition sales also seem to have fallen flat on GW's face as despite being a big product launch, it didn't help GW financially at all and things went south for them last fiscal report, while apparently price increases on products generated more revenue than a new edition of Fantasy.

Some people will be fine no doubt, thats good for them, but lets not act like these giant house rule tournament sets aren't a deterrent for many others as well.

so what are you calling me a fag cause i want to spice things up a bit. if you are fuck you

jspyd3rx wrote:I know of at least four fantasy players who will not be attending any tournaments because they can't afford a full 2k list. I seriously doubt they will run out and buy more minis just to be able to compete in a house rules tourney. Have an event they can compete in with the rules they have been eager to learn and I bet they might show up. Maybe they might even build and buymore plastic in eagerness of the following tourney.

This vote was to see if people wanted to do a tournament using ETC rules.....that was stated in the first place...I did post the rules as an after though due to releasing most of the gaming group would not have ever looked them up

jspyd3rx wrote:Umm.. 40k scene currently super rocks right now. I know Joel would rather not give prize support to either a three or four man fantasy tournament. I am just saying that it's hard to bring new blood to the hobby when regular tournament size armies are very expensive to put together only to have it neutered with house rules. 40k died for a little bit last year and I did my best to bring in more players with small kill team tourneys. Some of those guys are regulars now. In fantasy we have basically a new game with new rules. Let's start small and make it easy for newbies to compete and build out local base. Then we can maybe go to what you're trying to do know at a later date.

standard number is 6 but the ideal number is 8. if we have less then 8 the event does not happen

Dice_Runt wrote:

Kyle wrote:

Dice_Runt wrote:

Kyle wrote:

Dice_Runt wrote:

@at kyle, not true. that is what makes it interesting. the ETC is the largest tournament in the world. What kills a game is a combo between a store and player base.

Oh really? Because all the major gaming blogs and podcasts are talking about the waning popularity and troubles with WFB tournaments all over. Just because it's what the biggest tournament in the world uses, doesn't mean much when the game is suffering elsewhere. Obviously the biggest game is going to attract the most players. These massive house ruling setups are constantly brought up as a major point showing whats wrong. GW is at fault no doubt with how they changed the game, but this is also not making things better either.

how so??? I mean yea jeff from podhammer that has bitched but the rest of them are still hitting up the tournament sence and are enjoying the new game system. and how does this answer what i said above????

You don't see how a person who buys into this game and then goes to a tournament and is handed a HUGE list of special rules is no discouraging? It shows a major problem with the game system itself, and a divide amongst the community about how the game should be played and large part of it comes from the old guard not happy with how the game changed. And sadly these house ruling tourny faqs are just going to get bigger over time, they don't get smaller.

Of course there are people who don't care and will enjoy the game no matter what, but doesn't change that its become a common complain all over how the game is suffering and tournament play/attendance has become a mess. The tourny scene for WFB has been hit, the new edition sales also seem to have fallen flat on GW's face as despite being a big product launch, it didn't help GW financially at all and things went south for them last fiscal report, while apparently price increases on products generated more revenue than a new edition of Fantasy.

Some people will be fine no doubt, thats good for them, but lets not act like these giant house rule tournament sets aren't a deterrent for many others as well.

so what are you calling me a fag cause i want to spice things up a bit. if you are fuck you

? He didn't say anything remotely close to that Nate. He just stated the general discontent by certain people with 8th ed and how using house rules doesn't really fix the problem, but make them worse. If every other event is using a different rules set , then it's difficult to generate interest. In a nut shell.

Dude, no one is insulting anyone. That was really out of left field and uncalled for. Everyone who has posted has been respectful and constructive. Even gone so far as to give you props when no one else has attempted anything at all.

i just had a some what crappy day...and i am completely dead tired. i just took it as so but at the same time i dont see how some of it could be considered constructive input when its basically putting it down

Dice_Runt wrote:

ShadowMaster wrote:WAAC = Win At All Costs

ah power gaming lists. main reason why about 10 people left.. reason why i stopped playing 40k

Not powergaming lists. Its the kind of guys that find any reason to nuke your sportsmanship and whatnot.

I originally, and quickly, voted 'yes' as I was voting for having a tournament (didn't read about ETC). If I could I was change it to a no. I tried making a list but I can't. Don't have nearly enough points under the ETC rule set.

imo, in a dwindling fantasy base it would be better to run low point games. The problem with that is 8th doesn't lend itself to that type of gameplay.

I agree about the smaller point size. Perhaps if Nate ran a 1500 point tournament it might generate some interest and get some younger blood out there. 1k is unfortunately I think a little small for tournaments, though I wouldn't be opposed to it if we ran one that size.

As for the concerns about the house rules set, I can completely understand the situation and agree that there has been lots of issues revolving around it. I think when tournaments change the actual rules for game play, that is when they are crossing the line. Groups like the ETC and other tournaments are simply trying to create a more balanced playing field for the actual event by limiting some things in list creation. None of the rules I've seen posted (maybe I should reread them) actually change ANYTHING about how to play the game. What it limits is how you build your army, which as I stated earlier, can provide for a challenge tactically.

I think new players get turned off simply by the length of them, not necessarily the rules themselves. They see several pages of new rules for an event and they say "man, thats too much! I barely know the 800 pg mother-fking rulebook as is!" But, given enough forewarning and guidance, I think they could be helped to enjoy it.

I do like the idea of a smaller tournament though, that would be fun.

There are game changing rules in there too - go review the Virtual LoS, extra Look Out Sirs!, etc.

The game is complex enough without adding a whole huge layer of "adjustments" to it. I'm also not a fan of list restrictions because you basicly tell people they can't play models they own and may want to use. The fact is, when you impose these limits you don't create balance, you simply shift what is a power build.

It's not just about changing rules, but also creating a barrier of entry for players. Many invest into the game as is, and then when they want to play in an event they suddenly find out that their local venue says they can't use their army and have to build it completely differently? Many players will find themselves having to invest a lot of money in retooling their army to be legal under all these rules and it forces them to basically create two armies, one for tournaments and one for regular play.

so are u saying that people should just make tournament armies

oh and by the way you do get a look out sir roll on those spells now anyways


I know what i am done with this. um if any one wants to run anything by all means i wish them well but i am not going to

He's commenting on the different rulesets and what is required to play each. There are 8th ed rules that make certain builds possible but restricts others. Etc has the same thing. Since people are divided on what rules are to be used ( 8th, etc, house ) if forces people to either a) have multiple armies to be able to play each rules, or b) not play. It's cheaper to not play.If power gaming is what you're trying to avoid, I got bad news for you. Restricting one thing will make something else stronger. People will find rules/units/combos to abuse in ANY system used.

Dice_Runt wrote:so are u saying that people should just make tournament armies

No, saying exactly what KingdomCome said. Players are being divided because of having to create multiple armies to play with different rulesets/restrictions. When they play for fun or at the stores they play with the basic rules, but to play in a tournament they have to often make a completely different army.

The problem with this is that players often do not have flexible armies, to make multiple armies they have to spent lot of time and money. They make a 8E army and then to play in a tournament they find out that they made an invalid army and to play they have to invest into making a completely different army in many cases. Also these tourny rules change all the time so besides having to keep their army up to date with new army book releases, they have to keep themselves up to date with the ETC stuff. And as KingdomCome said, that there is always balance issues and even with ETC coming up with these rules, it doesn't really fix things and while it may nerf something overpowered, it generally keeps something else overpowered or benefits another army in a positive/negative manner.

Again this was just commenting about the various issues going on with the tourny scene and reasons why there are many with issues with the ETC stuff. It's not just a matter of people being stubborn, but alot of confusion, as well as time/financial hassels for people.

99.9% of people dont play a game to lose.

The NBA has powergaming franchises... because winning is exhilerating.