Warmachine/Hordes

Thats a pretty cool rundown of the game, i like it that both can actually be used to play against each other. I was looking at the Khador guys, they look like russians, i may look into them , they appeal to my little commy soul.

ShadowMaster wrote:1 - You can get the complete rules online in PDF format and so you don't need to buy a book

The pdf on Privateer's site are the "quick start rules". The rulebook contains much more information and is necessary to play a full game. I have an issue with the expansion rulebooks in that you have to buy it to get the stats on all your new models, however you also get the stats on your opponent's models (if you care to read them).

ShadowMaster wrote:I hear cries of "That's so broke" from a table every now and then, so the rules are by no means perfect or balanced.

GW's games get no better response. Everyone remember the Lash? Or modeling for advantage? (you can now build a crawling wraithlord to get a guaranteed cover save if you want, or a 24" boom with a 6" diameter 'wreckin ball" on your ork trukk)

Im looking at the Warmachine stuff. There's only 4 factions? I know Eric has the Cryx, what do the rest of you have or plan on getting. Im not feeling the motivation to try this game.

Warmachine has 4 factions plus the mercenary faction who can play on their own.
Hordes adds an additional 4 factions if the gameplay above is interesting to you.

So nine factions?

between both interplayable games, yes.

The only faction that appeals to me are the Cryx and Eric already has that army. I might sit this one out for now.

No worries!

I've got to ask since some of you are more experiences - what's up with Faction vs Faction fights? Like if I show up with a Khador army led by Scorscha and end up playing another Khador guy with Scorscha, is the battle going to be as lame as it looks like on paper? How often does that happen?

well, each player will be bringing their own lists. and even if you and i play the exact same list, we're not necessarily going to play it the same way. the chances of two exact lists playing the exact same way are very very slim.

Vycem wrote:I've got to ask since some of you are more experiences - what's up with Faction vs Faction fights? Like if I show up with a Khador army led by Scorscha and end up playing another Khador guy with Scorscha, is the battle going to be as lame as it looks like on paper? How often does that happen?

In your example - they will play the same; however, if you both bring Khador with a different Warcaster - then (as I understand it) both lists will play very differently. This is something you don't really see as much with Warhammer armies.

Sorry for this misinformation regarding the rules - I thought I had the full book in the PDF.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've heard, WM and Hordes are not exactly as compatible as initially thought. I've heard players complain that WM armies are generally superior simply because of the choice in warcasters. I've heard that on average, a seasoned player using a WM army will most likeley beat a seasoned player using a horde army. This oversight forces players to generally stick to one system instead of cross gaming.

Do you think there is any validity to this ?

Ovich wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've heard, WM and Hordes are not exactly as compatible as initially thought. I've heard players complain that WM armies are generally superior simply because of the choice in warcasters. I've heard that on average, a seasoned player using a WM army will most likeley beat a seasoned player using a horde army. This oversight forces players to generally stick to one system instead of cross gaming.

Do you think there is any validity to this ?

Stephan,
Again, I'm still only a beginner and I think Eric (Hurricane?) has a lot more experience than I in the games. But I should be getting my Hordes warpack today or tomorrow and I should have it built in a few more days after that then I'll start playing. I can let you know how a Hordes warpack stands up to Warmachine battle boxes (as I slowly paint what I have and add more models to my army). I would like to think that both have advantages and disadvantages over each other. I also think that point value of the games plays a role in it as well. In addition WM does have a greater number of casters at this time, so tailoring the army to your taste may be a bit easier. But for numerical proof that WM beats Hordes a significant amount of time, I don't have it. I am gonna browse PP's forums for some sort of results of tournaments.

From the Privateer Press website FAQ:

"Can I play a HORDES Warpack against a WARMACHINE Battle box?
This is definitely possible; however there will be a sizable point’s discrepancy, which could affect the balance of the battle. We recommend adjusting the boxed armies to be more in line with each other’s point cost. This will give you a better knockdown, drag out fight!"

I have played a number of WM battles but only once was against a hordes army. I kicked the other guys butt, and knotched it up to be a superior player . Seriously, the guys I played with never had any complaints about it.

Vycem wrote:From the Privateer Press website FAQ:

"Can I play a HORDES Warpack against a WARMACHINE Battle box?
This is definitely possible; however there will be a sizable point’s discrepancy, which could affect the balance of the battle. We recommend adjusting the boxed armies to be more in line with each other’s point cost. This will give you a better knockdown, drag out fight!"

I've never seeen that FAQ. I didn't think there was that large of a point difference, I watched two mixed battle box fights this weekend both were Skorne vs. Khador and both looked even to me. Khador lost both, but my money was on the "generalship" of the player not a weakness of the battle box. I'll be playing a lot of "battle box" fights for a while while i get my stuff painted up so I'll let you know if Hordes is weaker than WM (obviously specific to the Trolls).

Would this be enough to start playing ? working on a deal for it.

The old witch w/ scrapjack
Karachev the Terrible
A greylord Ternion (3 minis)
1 Unit box of Iron Fang Uhlans
1 Juggernaut
3 Man of War Shock Troopers

I honestly don't know. I would have to see the cards or stats for each of them.

One main difference when playing WM vs. Hordes is the Warcaster has focus to allocate at the start of turn 1, but the Warlock need to wait for the beasts to build fury before they use it (thus - turn 2).

That seems like a big difference that give WM an edge in "intra-game" play.

ShadowMaster wrote:One main difference when playing WM vs. Hordes is the Warcaster has focus to allocate at the start of turn 1, but the Warlock need to wait for the beasts to build fury before they use it (thus - turn 2).

That seems like a big difference that give WM an edge in "intra-game" play.

Not quite, a warlock in Hordes begins the game with full fury.

Well.. the lures have been set, now to see what bites.

The game is great but make no mistake there are some sick combos out there. The closest thing that I can relate it to is Magic the Gathering. There are going to be some combos that are brutal but they will by no means be unbeatable if you know what you are doing. Also, they have nerfed some of the stuff that used to make it possible to 1 turn kill the warcaster. Scorcha comes to mind .

The best way to start is to play 500 point games. The starter boxes contain about 350. So all you have to do is buy a few blisters or another warjack and you have the 500.

Luis you have enough to play at first, but you will be unable to play both warcasters unless we play over 750 points. Also, those 2 warcasters are not a good mix so you might have trouble against someone with a better combo of warcasters. The game is all about synergy.

Bill, just because Eric is playing that faction doesn't mean anything. You might see a different way to play Crix and your army would be totaly different. For example, Eric might like one warcaster and build his army around that warcaster's strength and you might like another warcaster and the units that compliment that warcaster would be totaly different.

What shocked me is that Eric is not playing Menoth.

Stephan, I heard the opposite about Horde. I have heard that they are stronger than Warmachine. The problem stems from some warcasters having anti-warjack spells and of course the beasts are not affected by them. Cygnar in particular they say is very weak against Horde armies.

im gonna try to sucker someone into trading me a Khador or a Skorne army, which me luck.

How much is the rule book ? and how many do i have to buy, i think there are several expansions allready.

Breakdown of the 8 WM/H factions I found on another board

Warmachine:
Cygnar
The Jewel of the Iron Kingdoms, Cygnar is the cultural center of Western Immoren, commanding the highest technology and some of the most elite soldiers. Cygnaran war philosophy is to control the flow of battle in order to win the day. Combat will occur when and where they choose, as they limit enemy mobility and establish kill zones where no hostile trooper dares set foot. Their troops are highly trained and skilled in multiple roles on the battlefield, though they will usually be outnumbered.

Cygnar Melee: Well armored and hard hitting, the highly trained warriors of Cygnar march into battle with confidence. Backed up by the protection of an Arcane Shield, they need fear no bombardments - only a direct hit can pierce their armor. Whether they wield the power of lightning or are trained to fight in tandem with their swift warjacks, Cygnar melee is centered on defeating the enemy quickly with multiple attacks.

Cygnar Ranged: Equipped with the most advanced direct-fire weapons available, Cygnar can drop their foes from a distance with deadly accuracy. Preferring light armor for mobility, they do not expect foes to survive to melee them. Either dug into makeshift bunkers for protection, firing in drilled formations, or shooting on the run with arcane precision and enchanted bullets, Cygnar has you in their sights.

Cygnar Magic: Cygnar support magic enhances the armor of their troops and the range and accuracy of their firearms. They also have a wide array of electrical effects to destroy enemy infantry or interfere with enemy warjacks to render them ineffective. Cygnar tends to put faith in their army and focus on spells that help them do their job more effectively.

Cygnar Warjacks: Somewhat lighter armored but faster and more agile than most jacks, Cygnar builds specialized models for various purposes and many of them have special abilities to aid them in their intended role. Cygnar jacks support their infantry well but are less likely to fight on their own in favor of a combined arms approach.

Khador
In the hard, cold, northern lands live the people of Khador. Their harsh surroundings have produced a faction centered on durability and brute strength. With the most heavily armored warjacks in the game as well as powerful melee troops, Khador is designed to outlast and outsmash any other faction. When the dust clears, they will be the last ones standing. With their superior knowledge of the battlefield their forces are deployed for ambush, attacking when and where they are least suspected.

Khador Melee: Khadoran troops take advantage of their heavy armor and shields, presenting a brick wall to would-be attackers. Instead of wasting precious cortex technology on light warjacks they have instead the Man-o-War, a massive warrior encased in a steam-powered battle suit. If the situation truly demands the utmost in savagery they can deploy a unit of crazed killers wielding cursed blades that protect them from all magic. Khador melee switches gears rapidly between quick brutal assault and impenetrable defense as the situation demands it.

Khador Ranged: Khador splits their resources between stealthy snipers and long-range bombardments. Their famed Widowmakers are some of the finest marksmen in all of the Iron Kingdoms, and their Mortars inflict massive casualties on troops from enormous distances. Beware your step, for in Khador you the bullets or arrows will come flying without warning.

Khador Magic: Lacking the arcnodes of other factions, Khadoran magic is more centered on supporting their army than in attacking their foes from a distance. A fortunate thing indeed that Khadoran warcasters are tough enough to get up close to deliver their own brand of spells! They can freeze enemies solid, summon cloaking blizzards to hide their troops, and accelerate their enormous heavy warjacks to seemingly impossible speeds.

Khador Warjacks: Slow and ponderous, Khador jacks nonetheless are the toughest available anywhere. Their enormous strength allows them both to carry the weight of their thick armor and also to put out enormous amounts of damage in melee. Cortex technology is hard to come by in Khador, so they do not waste them on light warjacks like other factions.

Protectorate of Menoth
Loyal followers of the Creator of Man, the Menites work together to overcome the toughest opponents letting nothing stand in their way. While individually weaker, more than any other faction they leverage synergy to combine into an unstoppable force. Every Menite killed in battle just inspires his fellows to fight even harder until all the Iron Kingdoms submit to Menoth's Law.

Menoth Melee: Blessed with cheap effective troops, the Protectorate has a mix of fast defensive troops and hard-hitting Knights. Further, with the support of the Choir their warjacks fight with a fury unmatched by any other faction.

Menoth Ranged: Preferring quantity over quality, there is a strong emphasis on AOE and spray attacks over the more accurate direct-fire weapons of other factions. Menites do not need to hit in order to kill, instead letting their wandering blasts land where they may. Aiming is even less necessary if your fanatical troops are willing to put themselves in harm's way to fire from point-blank distance.

Menoth Magic: Menoth spells are mainly focused on protection and enhancement of their army. They can protect against magic, shield their troops, and inflict divine punishment on anyone who attacks them. Offensively their blessings inspire their troops to fight better while they rain holy fire upon the enemy from afar. Some Menoth warcasters can even harvest the life force of their dying troops to inflict one last attack upon the enemy.

Menoth Warjacks: Menoth heavy jacks have medium armor and are fairly slow, other than some of their more recent models. Their light jacks though are some of the best in the game. They serve roles from anti-infantry to durable arcnodes to warcaster bodyguards. Although Menoth jacks may appear a little subpar on the statline the Choir can enhance them to make them fight much better or protect them from enemy spells or ranged attacks.

Cryx
The undead empire of Cryx will stop at nothing, using any dirty trick to achieve victory. Their infantry is cheap and disposable, packing a horrific punch against men and warjacks alike. Against Cryx, you must always be on your guard. The smallest opening, the slightest error, and they will pounce unleashing a torrent of evil spells that can kill men by the droves or turn the strongest models into crippled weaklings.

Cryx Melee: Their troops are designed to be hard-hitting and disposable, since there is a never ending supply of bodies to create more. In fact, they can even create them in the middle of battle, regenerating the fallen almost as fast as they can be killed until their enemies despair of ever finishing them all. For special jobs, they will field swift light infantry designed to be able to get into key positions and interfere with enemy movement.

Cryx Ranged: Masters of necrosurgery, Cryx prefers to turn the bodies of their warriors into living weapons. Pumped full of causic acids, they waddle towards the front lines to wretch their deadly payload onto the enemy. Most of them will not make it, but bodies are cheap and those that succeed will wipe out many times their own numbers. Cryx also boasts swift ghostly assassins, able to slip through solid walls to fire their spectral guns at unsuspecting prey.

Cryx Magic: Cryxian offensive spells are the most destructive in the game, killing indiscriminately and weakening stronger foes until they can be overcome. They give little to no though to protecting or supporting their own army, just tearing down the enemy. But their real power lies in their swift and numerous arcnodes. With the ability to channel their magic like no other faction can, Cryx can strike where they are least suspected.

Cryx Warjacks: Cryx warjacks mostly come in two types, fast and cheap arcnodes known as bonejacks and the aggressive melee oriented Helljacks. All are lightly armored compared to other factions but are quite a bit faster and harder to hit. In other words, Helljacks depend on getting the first hit and have the speed to help them do it. There are an abundance of open fists for power attacks, but their weapon POW suffers some for the superior speed.

Hordes:
Skorne
The Skorne are crossing over the harsh Stormlands to conquer the soft peoples of Western Immoren. They are born and bred for battle, having engaged in inter-house warfare for centuries before uniting for this grand invasion. They control their massive warbeasts with precise applications of pain and drugs and their warriors strive to outdo each other in melee to earn personal honor and a chance to be Exalted after death. In Skorne philosophy, the strong exist to dominate the weak, and the Skorne are strong indeed.

Skorne Melee: Skorne troops are split into a light first-strike class, intended to inflict heavy casualties on enemy troops, and the heavier Cataphracts, chosen for their power and durability. Even their ranged troops are trained in melee and can fight skillfully in hand to hand combat.

Skorne Ranged: While melee is considered more honorable by the Skorne, they have come to recognize the value of ranged weapons, especially against enemy warbeasts. Most of their ranged weapons are designed to either cause enough damage to injure enemy warbeasts or aid in neutralizing them.

Skorne Magic: Much of Skorne magic centers around controlling and manipulating warbeasts. They are the undisputed masters of Fury control, and also have a good selection of troop buffing spells. Offensive spells usually include an interference component on top of doing damage.

Skorne Warbeasts: Selectively bred and often surgically altered for use in warfare, Skorne warbeasts tend to be well armored and able to cause large amounts of damage. With the ability to control Fury and drive their beasts harder than any other faction, they will generally get the first swings in and leave little standing. While not entirely meant for melee, they also have good support beasts that use their special abilities to disrupt the enemy and aid their troops. Skorne beasts tend to have animi that help their allies more than themselves.

Trollbloods
Driven from their ancestral homes and marginalized by the humans for far too long, the Trollbloods have erupted into war. Trollkin warlocks lead their kriels into battle alongside massive Trolls which have been trained to use the oversized weapons and armor made for them. Although they come from many tribes, all Trollish races support each other as brothers in battle. Able to sustain horrific injuries that would kill or cripple other warriors, the Trollbloods will show that they are not to be trifled with.

Trollblood Melee: Raw power is what Trollblood melee is about. Their troops are strong and tough, able to go toe to toe with anything. Although fairly slow, Trollbloods are in for the long haul and they refuse to stay down. They are also good at working together, with various buffs from their leaders and solos enhancing the units' effectiveness.

Trollblood Ranged: Employing borrowed firearms technology from Cygnar, the Trollbloods are putting it to good use against their enemies. They have a variety of ranged threats from hit & run to anti-infantry assault to the enormous spears of the Impalers. While they have a good assortment of ranged models, their range tends to be short.

Trollblood Magic: Trolls employ all sorts of magic, not really specializing too much in any one thing. They have combat buffs, offensive spells, protection spells, and some good denial magic. Their denial/control spells are probably their greatest magical strength.

Trollblood Warbeasts: The Trollbloods utilize Trolls of every shape and size, wielding a variety of weapons. What they all have in common is the ability to put out a good beating, and many of their animi improve their combat strength. Also, all of their beasts can Regenerate. Any Troll which is not dead has the potential to haul himself back up and continue the fight at full power. The Dire Trolls take this a step forward, being able to heal themselves by eating their enemies. The end result is beasts that fight hard and fight long before going down.

Circle of Orboros
Operating in the shadows of the forest, the Circle acts to preserve the balance between Law and Chaos. Although they revere the Beast, it would be disastrous for him to return his full attention to Caen. The current state of warfare in the Iron Kingdoms threatens to upset this balance and for the first time the Circle has been drawn into open conflict. Shifting in and out of the shadows of the trees, they strike and silently disappear again. For ages mankind has feared the primal forces that lurk in the forest. Now it is time to learn why.

Circle Melee: All Circle infantry can cross terrain, and many of them get additional benefits from being in terrain. Mostly they are skirmish type troops, conducting hit & run maneuvers more than open slugfests. This is a good thing, because except for the burly Wolds most of them are not built for taking much punishment.

Circle Ranged: The Circle does not employ many conventional ranged weapons, but their Druids can cast offensive bolts at enemies and their javelins are not as short ranged as they seem once you figure in the speed of the throwers.

Circle Magic: Control and denial are the Circle's magical specialties. Enemies find themselves tangled and outmaneuvered while the sounds of laughter echo in the trees. Teleportation is one of their strengths, increasing their mobility even further. Their Woldwardens can cast the druids' offensive spells too, making the Woldwardens the Hordes equivalent of an arc node. The Circle also has the only unit which can cast spells in Hordes.

Circle Warbeasts: Their warbeasts are divided into the natural beasts and monsters they have trained for battle and the Elemental Constructs, magical animated statues made of stone and wood. The beasts tend to be vicious but more fragile, while the Elemental Constructs are very durable but lacking in Fury. They also never Frenzy the way beasts do, but being made of stone they are more difficult to heal and few have mastered the art. The Circle tends to view beasts as guardians and some of their animi reflect this concept.

Legion of Everblight
His body broken and his athanc entombed on a frosty peak long ago by the elves of Ios, the dragon now known as Everblight plots his return to power. By refusing to regenerate, he had freed himself from flesh and his warlocks each carry a piece of their Dragon-God's athanc within themselves. He knows all they see, and he whispers into their minds. His army consists of those he has blighted and the vile dragonspawn born of his blood. Without mercy they strike like lightning to prepare the way for their master's return.

Everblight Melee: The Everblight way is to hit fast and hard. Your fragility won't matter because dead enemies don't counterattack. Offense, offense, and offense are the top priorities here. All of their models put out higher damage than you'd expect and are fast to get the first strike. Just be sure not to leave them exposed or they can fall just as easily.

Everblight Ranged: Hails of arrows fit right in with the "get the first strike" doctrine of Everblight. With not one but two types of archer units as well as over half their beasts packing ranged weapons, Everblight can be considered the long-range specialist of Hordes. Further, it is difficult to hide from their shots with Eyeless Sight and Concentrated Volley ignoring most defenses. In particular, they have excellent anti-troop shooting ability, being able to put out a lot of shots or blanket an area with arrows.

Everblight Magic: Everblight has a lot of ways to taint their enemies with blight, rendering warbeasts less useful. They also have fairly good offensive spells for taking out groups of enemies or enhancing their own army. They see little use for denial or control magic; those tools are simply too slow for the ravenous spawn of Ethrunbal.

Everblight Warbeasts: Everblight's scaly horrors all come with surprising speed. They are mostly built for assault rather than defense and nearly all of them can cross rough terrain unhindered. They have some good animus tricks in their Light Warbeasts, and they are the only faction with the tiny Lesser Warbeasts that swarm the field like guided missiles.