40K Tournament on September 12th

Ovich wrote:
The point is not whether you, Chris, or Brian would need to cheat in order to win. The point is, that as an organizer, you are in the unique position to use your knowledge of the event and ability to make judgments in a way that creates an advantageous situation for yourself. Whether or not you use that advantage to win or not is irrelevant. The simple fact that you are not the same as every other gamer in the room, creates an inequality and therefore I can imagine that some people may be uncomfortable with it.

Fuck em. I will never run another event but I will keep placing in the top 3 because I have the skill and experience to do so. When ever I run a tournament I randomly roll the intitial pairings and then assign people via swiss in future rounds and randomly assign tables just like the missions are randomly run.

Of course I will run the tournaments when no one else is around to. The bottom line is I just hope we can wrap it up by 7 instead of going to 8 like we have so many times. Remember maggots, the tournament starts at 11:30 sharp(this comes from Joel).

WOW!!!!! There has been alot of action since i last came in... lol. Anyhow i'm the type that doesn't give a shit who runs or plays in the tournament, so sign me up. oh and my bad i couldn't make it to the last one its just that i was moving.

No one cares about your excuses.

WC_Brian wrote:

ShadowMaster wrote:It is one thing to play the fill in army, but if you are the judge you certainly can't play and compete to win. You definately can't take a prize slot.

It is a conflict of interest - pure and simple.

If you need it explained more than that, then I question your ability to ever understand.

Who are you, do you even play in the 40k events?

While Bill's statement was a little bit sharp, he already apologized for it. Whether or not he plays 40k is irrelevant, because this conversation has moved beyond any one particular gaming system. Although I do concede that we should have moved this out of the Find a Game thread, a long time ago.

Fuck em. I will never run another event but I will keep placing in the top 3 because I have the skill and experience to do so. When ever I run a tournament I randomly roll the intitial pairings and then assign people via swiss in future rounds and randomly assign tables just like the missions are randomly run.

You shouldn't just say "fuck em" Brian. As an organizer, you should make efforts to understand how the majority of your gaming group feels about a particular issue. In the pre-tourney setting, no one is going to come out and say " I feel uncomfortable with you being a judge and a player". First, they'll be afraid of being labeled a whiner/complainer/pussy. Second, since declaring they might be uncomfortable could lead to conflict, most people will just grin and bear it even if they don't like it.

So you could make a quick anonymous poll on the forum, limited to 40k players to determine how, overall, your population feels about a judge who is also a player.

Once again, Brian, you're probably right, that no one cares... but it could be something worth checking out.

Go ahead and check it out yourself then. This is a non-issue that Bill decided to blow up because he thinks ethics trumps simple practicality. He should go see if he can muck something up in a congress or senate somewhere.

And Ovich when you say organizer I think once again you guys are thinking of this tournament into something more than what it is. It is not a tournament at a con, it is just some dudes show up and throw down. It's an excuse to get a couple of games in one day and maybe have a chance to will some models. It's not a hallowed institution like Yale or Harvard.

This debate has saved me alot of trouble, now I can sit back and watch someone else struggle to run the show smoothly. Of course I will from time to time have to run the tournament. I am the best candidate to run the thing and I would gladly do so to save myself and others time and grief.
I'll still do the time warnings to make sure we get out by 7PM, that is all I really care about.

And remember if you think the TO should never play there is always a 50% chance he will have to be a rounder to prevent byes. Wow once you realize that, what a waste of a thread.

As long as people are dropping cash down, it's not just a couple of dudes throwing down.

and like I said.. if no one has a problem with it, then carry on the way you've been doing it. Also, I thought we made clear already the distinction between the TO having to fill in, and the TO actively planning to play. When the TO fills in, he can't win the tourney, or at least, he shouldn't, cause that would just be lame as shit.

Anyway, I was just encouraging you to find out how other people felt about it that's all. Doesn't mean you don't have to organize events anymore.

You and Bill are the only people I have ever met that feel that way. Out of 5 game stores and countless tournaments almost all run by someone playing in the event I have never heard anyone say the things you guys are saying. If someone started to do what you claim could happen it quickly become evident anyways. The probability of someone being so shady as to develop missions that favor their army is pretty low. I guess we all know some gaming douches but this is still a stretch. Anyways as I stated all the missions I have ever used our straight out of the book or printed out from a major event and then randomly determined. I forget, was there any other objection?

It really sounds like political correctness. If there could even be the perception of impropriety then we should go out of our way to prevent that? It's really silly.

I forget, was there any other objection?

Are you trying to sound like a douchebag? or is that how you naturally are.

It ultimately has to do with how the gaming community feels about it. Not just one person. Since only Rokaassan, Shadow, and myself have mentioned anything about it.. I guess it seems like most people are not bothered by it.

And that's all that matters.

I haven't really followed this, but I read the last couple of posts just cause it's 4 pages long now.

Whenever I run an event, I only play as a stand-in when necessary. If I do play the entire tournament, then I throw in a sizable (usually more then half) percentage of my store credit into the final pot.

Personally I think the TO should only play if there is an odd number, because the TO should always be available to answer questions posed by other gamers.

That being said, it's up to those running it how they want to do it.

Ovich wrote:

I forget, was there any other objection?

Are you trying to sound like a douchebag? or is that how you naturally are.

It ultimately has to do with how the gaming community feels about it. Not just one person. Since only Rokaassan, Shadow, and myself have mentioned anything about it.. I guess it seems like most people are not bothered by it.

And that's all that matters.

No I am not a natural douchebag like yourself. I have to work very hard to get to the level that some of you Miami gamers get to. Luckily there are some easy going people down there that can actually play a lick like Chris and Nick. Sadly the Bouchers' moved away.

Miami has all of these opinionated gamers who have a knack for being wrong and losing games. I think it is unique, probably nothing quite like it in the world. There is so much douchebag in Miami that Marc lent his terrain to JC of Alternate Dimensions fame for his second game store and then he kept it after closing down. Marc tried to get in touch with him countless times but JC is just hiding out in Miami, holding onto some terrain he has no need of.

Rarrr! I'm ready to bash some heads this saturday. I hope all the pointless complainers come out for a whoopin. Oh and just so you know all competitive people are douchebags to someone, it just depends who's ego can't handle that specific person. IE just about everyone is hating on someone somewhere.

scurrdi wrote:
Personally I think the TO should only play if there is an odd number, because the TO should always be available to answer questions posed by other gamers.

We have already discovered that this isn't a problem if the TO is a seasoned veteran of many campaigns. If he knows the rules without looking in the book, can answer questions quickly, and his games are always the first or second ones to finish then he has plenty of time to take care of questions, play his game to completion, and prepare the standings for the next round before it is scheduled. I can do all those things, and that is why I quickly get the ball rolling whenever there is no TO and finish the tournament on time.

Just so you guys know normally the store owner just runs the events(Swiss pairings are pretty easy). As far as judging goes the players should be able to figure out the rules themselves. Another trick is letting anything that isn't a big issue slide or D6. Luckily 5th edition rules are pretty easy to understand and there are not alot of grey areas like 4th. This whole who is going to be TO this month thing is entirely unnecessary.

Brian -

How many people need to tell you that your wrong before you'll see past the thoughts in your own skull? The TO should not be a player.

It is not a question as to weather someone can perform the multi-task of player and TO, it is about if that is the fair or right thing to do.

About 5 people have told you your crazy to not see how wrong that is, but your being stubborn in your views. Plus as you continue to babble, you've made it clear that your opinion here are completely self serving. You want to run things AND play and you can't do that if you aknowledge what is a clear conflict of interest.

Just have to look beyond the rule of TO. By not taking payment to run, randomizing missions, terrain, and player assignments, all aspects of being a TO, the organizer is now more of a player than a TO.

Kyle - your comment brought to my attention that my last sentence was much less constructive than I intended.

I removed it and your reference to it as I don't want to fuel an argument. Not trying to censor you or anything.

Sign me up (Ray)
Is it 2000 or 1850?

Brian, you're a pretty natural douchebag.. almost to the level of condescending prick. So don't sell yourself short. I point to exhibit A

Miami has all of these opinionated gamers who have a knack for being wrong and losing games. I think it is unique, probably nothing quite like it in the world

Go play somewhere else if you don't like it down here.

Wow... What the F&$@ guys is going on?

ITT: Moralfags versus Pragmatistfags.

Waging war over a non-issue simply because of the principle of the thing is retarded. I see so much devotion to the word of the "law", and so little to the spirit of it. Do you fellows really think someone who has won dozens of tournaments, and thousands of dollars worth of store credit, really needs to TO to his own advantage to win?

Tee-hee. Seriously. In the words of Heavy Weapons Guy: "Cry some more, babies."

I would love to see how exactly Brian would somehow be giving himself or his buddies an edge in the game when everyone knows how to play the game so well rulewise and can see clear as day what everyone is doing.

Does he go around knocking figs off table and calling it out of game? Is he making up rules as he goes along some how without anyone noticing?

Nobody said Brain was going to cheat.
We said he souldn't do both things to avoid any issues.

It's pretty much insinuated, as their is no real way to give the TO some kind of magical advantage outside of cheating in game or by ruling.

Being the TO would have no bearing at all on the results of a tournament unless something fishy was done.

No it wasn't and since Endre is running the event it's a non-issue anyway?
Why even bring it up?

Because the entire thread has turned out about the stupid subject of TO's playing people calling out Brian specifically? It's not like the past several pages have not happened.

I haven't insinuated that Brian needs to cheat to win. I know Brian is an excellent player and wouldn't need to do that.

If you read the whole post Kyle, you'll see that my whole point was that some people may have issue with the TO being a player and that maybe he should explore that. That's it ..

It spiraled out of hand, when I felt that he started becoming sarcastic and patronizing.