RANT: We need venue alternatives!

Ovich wrote:All I'm saying is tone down the negativity. Maybe having a club will work, you pessimist.

Why do we have to be satisfied with a shit hole for a store, when we live in a major god damn metropolitan city. I would open a store if I had the resources. But I don't , and neither does anyone else around here. So the next best thing we can do is try and form a club.

Maybe you like having to rub your shit in some other dude's sweaty ass while trying to make your way to the disgusting bathroom that you have to use a crow bar to pry open. WTF? Since when do we have to settle for crap. Sure there's nice terrain, but who gives a shit about terrain when you're sweating your balls off.

You know I thought about what would happen if sunshine closed down. At first I thought, that would be bad, we'd have no place to play. But the more and more I think about it... I wouldn't give a flying fuck ! I got friends to play with. I can get my merchandise from anywhere.

You mean don't tell it like it is. I figured you of all people would see my point being to tried to organize a group that fell apart quickly because of the reasons I listed. I guess you have a short memory.

okay, after talking with almost everybody about this (just writing I don't think anyone cares what i say about this), the gaming club thing is a great idea but kinda far for a lot of people and I just dont see enough people up for it. plus the idea of an on looking crowd is great, that day is the day i open a store.

I wouldnt mind going to FIU to play, is not far if you take the turnpike, the exit is like right next to the campus.

I just see one problem for those non students, Parking. Parking is rough over there, you can park on meter visitor parking, but is $1.00 an hour. Security dont always check the spots, but if they do then you'll get a warning the first time and a fine the next.

Gaming clubs work, there are hundreds of gaming clubs out there that been arround for a bunch of years, to have a sussceful gaming club you need a dedicated core of people that really wanna put some effort into making it work, and by effort i mean "organizing gaming sessions, getting a space to play, and all the little things that go into keeping a club like that going".

Eventually soem kind of membership fee could be implemented, like $5 a month or something, this can then be use to host tournaments evry few months or so and take the money for Prize support, once again ,you would need someone dedicated to organizing this and take care of the club finances.

It can be done, things like this start small and then expand from there. One of the reasons why i think the Lodge thing Stephan started didnt work was because it required to much money from people..just to start, and there were a bunch of other complications with it.

Terrain can be individually bought by the players and kept at the club, just mark it with your name or something, we got people that can make their own terrain, this could be also be done. Is all about being positive and WANTING to make it work. You cant say soemthing is gonna fail before its even tried.
This will help bring the gaming community closer here in South Florida. You never know, maybe down the line a deal could be reached with Joel and we could host a torunament using the club space and Joel could come with GW price support and merchandize to sell at the event ( just throwng this out there )

Too bad the only store in Miami is Sunshine, and that store blows. I would rather eat the drive up to Tate's or War and Pieces to have a better gaming experience. And + your going for the company and the beautiful store, not an old rundown place that smells bad.

Basically if people are willing to go the extra mile they will be pleasantly surprised with the results. Gamers will continue coming because the atmosphere is completely different and everyone is there to play games and have a good time.

Tates is much better then Sunshine all around, no doubt, but the main topic here is the big money!

Travel time and cost to Tates are to much for me to warrant the trip.
Sunshine has improved since I first went there.

JerryB

Will someone please start a roll call to see who would be willing and able to make it to FIU if we could get a club started there. I for one love the idea.

- Art

I agree with Luis,

You know what Bill, I lost nothing in trying to start the lodge club. We gamed, we had a good time, we drank a few beers. It was fun, and it cost me a few dollars more than when I play at Joels. If we could keep something like that going, I'm all for it. It was fun. More elbow room is surprisingly refreshing.

Sorry it took so long to reply, I actually wanted to take the time to think over the arguments pro and con.

First off: Scurrdi, holy mother of crap, I had no idea Joel charged you for multiple games on the same day a separate fee! That's disgusting! I mean, it's pretty obvious that the more games you play, why, the more things you buy. It's like he's punishing you for having more interest in shopping there! That is DEFINITELY an abuse and I'm surprised you're not angrier about it. Now I feel stupid that I bought so much different stuff from him - I spent a lot not just on 40k, but on Fantasy and even FoW stuff. I didn't know he kicked you in the nards for wanting to play more than one game!

For the person who said "Stand up for yourself" and "Talk to Joel" FYI, I did talk to Joel, I told him I want no part in the league whatsoever, and he KNOWS that whenever I go there, I try to buy something to support the store. Hell, half the time I prepay for shit, knowing that with his spotty delivery system it might be weeks if not over a month before I get my stuff. And the 20% discount is NOT all-encompassing, but I still buy the occasional full priced Direct Only item from him just to support the store. I told him repeatedly that I don't really want to pay to play, that I don't come often enough, etc. Hell, when he broke to me that he started charging a league fee for Fantasy, he even said "Not to chase you away but..."

Look, I know the man puts effort into getting terrain made and setting up the tables. I know it's hard to run a gaming store, and his has certainly come a long way. But I'll rarely, if ever, have an entire day to burn at a gaming store. Nine times out of ten I'll have enough time to drop by and maybe get one game in. And I'd be ok with the lack of space and AC, but to pay $2 on top of all that? Not to mention that I *know* that I have to pay more than most people because I don't have the free time to play there for hours on end? I end up thinking I'm better off staying home and painting, at least there's no preferential treatment in that.

Playing at a game store is basically advertising for that store. Paying for the honor feels retarded, but we're in a recession, I get it.

Yes, I get it's only $2, and yes, it's not that much money compared to the shit other people have to pony up in other places, but what pisses me off even more than having to pay to play with stuff he sells me is that it's unequal and it's forced. I actually agree with Jerry on flat pricing. The league system just makes me feel like I'm cheated because I'm not one of the "regulars" that can play 3 games at a time or that often, and it's VERY unwelcoming. Worse, I'm being charged though other people who play other games aren't. Added to that is that I know I don't have ultra competitive armies, and in the case of fantasy that I'm just learning. I don't have to be reminded by the fact that I pay more money than someone with a newer army or has played longer. What's the point of learning a game if it means ponying up more money than not? What's the point of trying fun lists, or trying out new models, if doing so means that you end up paying more money than someone who doesn't?

I would LOVE to play more games at home, but at the end of the day I don't really have any friends that play. I kind of know Rufus and to a lesser degree Chris, but I can't just say "lets have a game" even though I have a table, terrain, and an apartment to myself. In a perfect world I'd know a good group of people who I could game with at least once a week or two at someone's house, and maybe even set up a campaign with.

As far as the gaming club idea goes, I'd do it, and I don't think it's as hard as people make it out to be. LOTS of people all over the world run Warhammer-based clubs. Sure, it'd be nice to have an Elk club and all that, but seriously, a free room at FIU doesn't sound that bad.

In the end, until I get a better option, I'll still go to Sunshine once in a while when I'm desperate for a game or someone asks me to play with them. But I'm definitely not going as much as I honestly thought I'd be.

The "It's the only thing we have!" argument just tells me that maybe I should give up trying to play until it's worth playing. Personally, I'd rather get a few really awesome games a month.

I'm with Stephan on the "Lets try to aim for better than whatever we can get" line of thought.

Ovich wrote:I agree with Luis,

You know what Bill, I lost nothing in trying to start the lodge club. We gamed, we had a good time, we drank a few beers. It was fun, and it cost me a few dollars more than when I play at Joels. If we could keep something like that going, I'm all for it. It was fun. More elbow room is surprisingly refreshing.

Its funny, when it happened you weren't happy. Now its"it was worth it" give me a break.

Bill, what made you this cynical and jaded?

There was only 1 thing I wasn't happy about when it came to the lodge. The fact that all these assholes that were clamoring for a change never came out to play. That's what pissed me off. So I hope that doesn't happen again if we start playing at FIU.

If we start a club I'm going to personally make it a mission of mine to convince your wife to let you come out and play. I don't care if she hates me, I'm going to prove to her, that in order to keep your sanity, you need to game more.

Ovich wrote:Bill, what made you this cynical and jaded?

There was only 1 thing I wasn't happy about when it came to the lodge. The fact that all these assholes that were clamoring for a change never came out to play. That's what pissed me off. So I hope that doesn't happen again if we start playing at FIU.

If we start a club I'm going to personally make it a mission of mine to convince your wife to let you come out and play. I don't care if she hates me, I'm going to prove to her, that in order to keep your sanity, you need to game more.

THATS MY WHOLE POINT. Also what about those of us who dont join this club because we dont play enough. What do we do when we get a free few hours? Now nobody will show up to Joels. So we are screwed. Stephan I have a new born with acid reflux and a two year old. My wife deals with them all day every day. Its not easy.

Ovich wrote:Bill,
If we start a club I'm going to personally make it a mission of mine to convince your wife to let you come out and play. I don't care if she hates me, I'm going to prove to her, that in order to keep your sanity, you need to game more.

And get laid more often!

Stephan I have a new born with acid reflux and a two year old. My wife deals with them all day every day. Its not easy.

I'm not razzing you like Javy and Erik. I'm just saying that everyone needs a break, including you. If we happen to be playing at a club instead of sunshine, then you come to the club. It sounds like if we do this FIU thing, then it'll be free.

we could just all tell Joel that, as a group of gamers, we feel that paying to play at his shop is unfair, and sign a petition.

Then, we can establish a method of phasing out the league, so that its not just an abrupt threat from his customers, but a well planned and thought out process.

If all of us stand together on this one, he'd have no choice but to agree.

The Magic players do that shit all the time to him, but in a grossly negative way, they threaten to just start going to other stores and not buy his products. And its usually over stupid stuff like forcing him to keep his store open later, or buying time before the tournament starts for their late friends to make it.

Point is, when a full group of customers work together, he has no choice but to listen.

I'm a HUGE supporter of local stores, and I know there are a lot of negatives to joel's place, but its one of the only places in the community where people can walk in off the street and discover these sorts of games and activities, and I'm sure there are many of us who would have never played a single game together, or have become friends, or even met each other, if it weren't for that store.

I know I'm no hardcore warhammer player and I'm just an LotR/ D&D guy, and a newbie at best, but maybe that's why I can still see the magic of a place like Sunshine. Pulling out of Joel's shop and playing elsewhere can only alienate players, reduce the all ready tiny population of gamers in the area, sunshine could close, and really, it could kill a dying store and niche gaming market.

I mean, yeah the 2 bucks is bullshit, and it punishes players who lose often because they don't have amazing lists or veteran tactics, but there are options. We could let Joel know how we feel and he will eliminate the fees (and we should make sure to continue supporting his store without a tiny savings account set up to keep us coming back) or we should suck it up and pay 2 bucks.

joel isn't exactly driving a Mercedes. Individually we might find him a pain in the ass, but he needs us and the gaming community needs a place like his, no matter how flawed.

talked to joel yesterday ( not by choice it was more of a confrontation about this damn thread which i'm sure some of you have gotten an earful as well) quit the whole talk to joel, or sign a petition stuff cause he's very clear on his stance; if we don't like it then don't come, what worries me more though is he has kind of lost it with the gaming community and threatens to stop the gaming at his store. I know this is probably a bluff but it obviously shows he's not here to negotiate and frankly if he is the owner of the store we all go to, which he is, then we just have to take it until someone actually steps up and starts a club or something similar. Don't misunderstand me please, i am not here as the defender of joel, most of you know i have my problems with the store too but right now he has the ace and we are stuck with that and at the end of the day it's still a decent place to game.

ptlax23 wrote:talked to joel yesterday ( not by choice it was more of a confrontation about this damn thread which i'm sure some of you have gotten an earful as well) quit the whole talk to joel, or sign a petition stuff cause he's very clear on his stance; if we don't like it then don't come, what worries me more though is he has kind of lost it with the gaming community and threatens to stop the gaming at his store. I know this is probably a bluff but it obviously shows he's not here to negotiate and frankly if he is the owner of the store we all go to, which he is, then we just have to take it until someone actually steps up and starts a club or something similar. Don't misunderstand me please, i am not here as the defender of joel, most of you know i have my problems with the store too but right now he has the ace and we are stuck with that and at the end of the day it's still a decent place to game.

well if it's like that, then I think paying 2 bucks is still our best option. At least until a better store comes along.

talked to joel yesterday ( not by choice it was more of a confrontation about this damn thread which i'm sure some of you have gotten an earful as well

So Joel knows about this thread.. knows about how the gamers feel and still doesn't give a shit? Is that what you're saying?

Clearly he's bluffing about people not being able to game at his store. It would ruin him and he knows that.

I'm with Steph on this.

Wow. Nick... we actually agree on something?

thats exactly why i said its probably a bluff, but the important point i am trying to make is that without another place to game the point is kinda mute, so the people talking about starting a new club ( not, stephan i know ur just getting a feeler) need to stop the board talk and do something about it, otherwise pay $2.

Why stop the board talk? I'm not intimidated in the slightest. This is a fine place to organize. What's he gonna do? Ban me from playing in his sweatshop? Ban us all? Give me a break. Not like I need anything free for 40K.. The "league" doesn't benefit me in the slightest.

If he doesn't like people expressing dissatisfaction with his conduct and his store, I recommend he do something about the problem, before we do.

That is all.

If you want to keep kissing his ass for a discount you could get on eBay, and 30 bucks of free stuff you'll have to pay 40 or 50 for (not counting gas costs), go right ahead. I like friendly store owners, comfortable gaming accomodations, and an overall pleasant experience. Maybe I'm just crazy like that.

Along those lines,

Any news about FIU Nick?

first of all relax, read my post and then realize its not about kissing joel's ass, its simply stating that if people want a new place which i am all about ( just another place to get some games in) then do it, in terms of joel's if u wanna game there then go by his rules, how is that kissing someones ass, he owns the place, u've been talking about FIU, sounds like a good idea, make it happen if possible u go there so ur in the best position. Ur talking a lot on the board, have u said shit to joel, if you have then nevermind, but if u haven't then ur really just bitching, he asked me about it and people there can attest to what i said, told him staight up i din't like paying multiple fees for mulitple game systems and that maybe u should give the option of no league, don't know if he took in what i said but i said it not to argue with him cause that never goes anywhere but as a discussion, nick u don't know me but a ot of people here do and most would say i'm pretty laid back and reasonable so realy don't take anything i say personally, i support ur idea and hope it goes through and would continue to support u after, in my eyes its a step in the right direction to a larger gaming community due to more acessibilty alone.

MONKEYS!!!

Sorry, I needed to shout something silly.

Just see what happens with FIU, I don't really care that much, I just wanna play.

I have stated this before, I had told Joel about couple years ago that the league deal was a bad idea and would drive customers away.

Recently it did not have any impact because I had stop playing a lot games (40K, Fantasy, Hero clix and FOW), but WotR became popular and he started charging for that.

Instead of pissing and moaning on the board I confronted him (as have several other people) again and as I have on every major topic that concerns the gaming comunity. He was pretty steadfast on this until I did the math. Chris did a good job, but consider this:

5 points for losing (I lose 95%) 200 divided by 5 equals 40 times 2 (two dollars) equals $80 fucking bucks!!! Joel I am paying $80.00 for $30.00 is fucking illegal! Its a ponzi scam. Well I left, not because I was pissed, but because I was the end of the tournament (Sunday WotR) and I wanted to go home. I will continue the "debate" with Mr. Sunshine today. But I think I made an in road.

Hey, tell if my math is wrong.

JerryB

JerryB