RANT: We need venue alternatives!

Joel's going to catch this shit and kick us all out... besides Bill and Juan

Im with Alfred. Talk to Joel. Tell him you dont play enough to pay the fee. See what he says. He obviously keeps track of what people buy...so throw it back at him. Hey Joel I buy all of my shit from you cut me a fucking break on the 2 bucks. If he says no then buy from Ebay and play somewhere else. Nobody talks to the man when he steps on toes. Try it you may see he's more reasonable than you think. Understand he afraid of going out of business so he's simply trying to bring in extra income.

Rarr!! Monkeys!!

hliddle wrote:All is not well in the miniature gaming world....of south florida...

Well Tate's is a great place for gaming, lots of space, terrain, clean store, though obviously too far for some people here. War and Pieces is not really that bad of a place either though they really only support one game line really with occasional other games getting played when the tables are open (though they do seem to be trying to get more into AT-43 as well now). I've played all kinds of obscure games at W&P with buds and never had any issue with it even if the store didn't carry the game line.

The only real negatives are again that many of the folks in this forum come from the Miami area so these stores are out of the way, and they charge the MSRP for all the products outside of the occasional sale.

Though we all do laugh at what became of the Dragon's Lair......

Im with Alfred. Talk to Joel. Tell him you dont play enough to pay the fee. See what he says. He obviously keeps track of what people buy...so throw it back at him. Hey Joel I buy all of my shit from you cut me a fucking break on the 2 bucks. If he says no then buy from Ebay and play somewhere else. Nobody talks to the man when he steps on toes. Try it you may see he's more reasonable than you think. Understand he afraid of going out of business so he's simply trying to bring in extra income.

I have talked to him and he doesn't give a shit.. at least not in my case.

I've known the guy for many years, and have bought lot's of things from him, but for some reason he still sees me as someone who only goes to ebay and never buys anything at his store. Just the other day I bought a box of marauders from him, and a couple weeks before that a box of chaos knights. This is shit I could have gotten cheaper elsewhere but didn't feel like waiting for.

My point is, at one point in the past, Joel always gave the option to participate in the league or not. If you paid, you made your points, if you didn't pay, you didn't accumulate any points.

Now in terms of sales, Joel is doing pretty well this year. Which is good to see, we don't want the only store we have to close down, BUT, if that's the case, why make league pay mandatory.? To me, it's an abuse, a way to make a little extra cash off the same people who are supporting you already.

Now I'll go play at the store if that's my only option, and I'll pay my 2 dollars if Joel insists I do, but IMO it creates resentment.

If Joel paid more attention to his customers needs, and not just to making a little extra cash, then maybe when the next gaming store opens up, he won't lose all his gamers. Because next time, he may not be so lucky in having to face off against another store with incompetent owner.

Joel, if you're reading this... you know I tell you how I feel about things, so everything I'm saying here should be no surprise. But if you are pissed at what your reading (I know you SAY you don't frequent the boards anymore), then just show me the courtesy of telling me, instead of just giving me sly and sarcastic remarks when I come in the store.

Joel doesnt get on the forums anymore. He doesnt like criticism.

I don't mind the $2 fee: it's not a lot of money (I spend more on gas just getting to Sunshine), and you do get free stuff when you hit 30 points right? Joel has also invested money to have a great selection of terrain, and also stays open until pretty late every day so we can play, and I really appreciate that.

Making the fee mandatory is kinda lame, but I don't think it's a big deal.

He's offering a 20% discount? I think last time I was there it was 15%; that's pretty sweet.

Also, just a thought for those who were trying to calculate how much Joel makes with the league fee: I rarely pick up stuff that amounts to exactly $30, and since I don't want to pick up say a $20 blister and leave a $10 credit unspent, I usually pick up stuff over my $30 allowance and pay the difference. Joel profits from that difference at full price without having to offer that 20% discount, so I'd say his profit from the league system is better than what came up in Chris' calculations.

A good point.

Another point to make is, yes, while there is a 'standard' wholesale price, further discounts are offered to long-time customers, good negotiators, and people who buy in larger amounts. So, no, as much as a 60% discount on the standard price isn't out of the question.

Heck, GW gives people free replacements without so much as verifying that an item was purchased, aside from a batch number you can make up on the fly. Do you really think they're super-stingy with discounts? It costs them about 25 cents to make the boxes of plastic they sell.

Altruistic merchants are a myth. However, I'm not asking for altruism.. I'd settle for politeness, and reasonableness.

You have something in writing to back those numbers up Nick? I think you pullsed those from your ass because ,the GW retail merchant agreement contract I have right here says 45%.

If you want to review it - call them up and tell them your considering opening a store and they will send you a copy in PDF.

45% profit margin, then the 20% discount, okay just give joel the fucking $2 then, nobody buys enough there to say that joel makes a lot of money off of us.

Contracts can be modified on a by-customer basis. I do it all the time. You simply need to speak to the right people. You'd be surprised what kinds of authorization Corporate will give, especially when you're the only game in town, and you've been doing business for over a decade. Just because something is in writing, does not necessarily mean it cannot be tailored to the customer. You willing to go on record that you believe every single independent hobby store in the US pays the exact same prices for wholesale, buddy? How about restaurants? You think every restaurant in the United States that purchases wholesale vegetables from Cisco pays the same price?

Don't wave that silly PDF around like you're Moses, and you just had a heart-to-heart with God. You just don't know how to haggle. The only thing which needs to be explained to the higher-ups is the reduction in price, and if they believe the reduction is justified, you're golden. If a store has no competition, chances are they will sell more merchandise, because they're the only game in town.. and if they're selling more to us, then they're buying more from them.

Sure, if you have Walmart buying volume power your going to be able to negotiate a better unit price.

While some contracts can be modified and some contracts are negotiable, I doubt Joel has the volume, leverage, or business savey to make that happen here.

I'll agree with Nick that contracts can be tailored to a customer, and also with Bill in believing it's not the case with Joel.

Ok, I don't know how to use that fancy quote button but JerryB said this

"I have asked Joel about NOT paying, I would lose my discount."

I've only ever played twice at the store and he hasn't taken away my discount, if he would take away the discount that would be pretty uncool.

On another note, How would everyone feel about actually creating a Gaming club similar to those clubs like the Elks, Masons or Knights of Columbus? There are 100 registered members on Traitor Legion. If we could get even 34 members at $30.00 (just a random amount) a month thats $1020/month.

How can we not rent a warehouse or some other "cheap" space and turn it into our "lodge"? With more members joining we could eventually stock it with tables, a fridge, lockers (in case you want to leave stuff locked up) painting stations, shelves, music system (so you can blast The Conan soundtrack as you lop off heads)

And the nice part is we wouldn't be competition to Joel cause we don't sell product, we "offer" comfort & peace for a reasonable fee. (whatever that fee may be)

Who knows maybe the more people join the cheaper the cost. Or the bigger the "warehouse" we can get. We'll run it like a lodge, with a treasurer and what not.

Just throwing an idea out there.

You relying on people to pay the fee every month. Ask Stephan how that one went. People are unreliable and wont take it seriously. Youve got 15 year olds,college students with no money and people who are plain UNRELIABLE or wont be committed, it wont work. Dont get me wrong its a good idea, but the financial burden would fall on those with a good job and/or are responsible. Youll get people who think they should only pay when they are able to play...there are so many factors,Stephan can attest to that.

Here are, in my opinion, the biggest difficulties with having a gaming club.

1. Leadership. Who's going to negotiate prices with vendors, orchestrate schedules, run tournaments, collect and manage money, communicate with members, handle equipment and terrain, create a sense of community, and recruit new members ? People with a lot of friggin time on their hands, that's who. Oh , yeah, it also has to be people who are willing to do it for free.

2. Membership. Are people really going to pay 20 or 30 dollars a month when they're not even sure they're going to be able to play all the time? And what are people going to get in return for that fee? It better be more than just a comfortable place to play because people are shelling out cash. Are there going to be prizes? Tee-shirts? Free painting and modeling space? Easy access? other perks? Whoever organizes this thing needs to really create a fantastic and fun sense of community and camraderie among members, otherwise people are going to drop out, and you'll lose renvenue and other members will have to pick up the slack or see the club fail.

Recruitment - how are you going to draw more people into the club? are you going to advertise? put up flyers? Are college and highschool students gonna shell out money to be in a gaming club after they find out they can just go over to sunshine and play there? Especially after they just forked up 100+ bucks to buy a starter army? Well what about veteran gamers then you say? Are they going to be willing to pay money to meet new people and game in a different atmosphere if they are already comfortable with who they game with and the fact that it's free.? How are you going to interest people? How are you going to keep the people who are members but are short on cash. ?

Complexity - The more organized and "club" like it gets , the more formal it gets, and the more formal it gets the more expensive it gets. What happens when people don't pay, or are chronically late. Are the organizers going to be prepared to kick out "friends" . How are you going to handle conflicts and disagreements, or things like stolen property, or accidents that occur at the club. Do you become an official organization of some sort with a clear set of rules and regulations?

These are some of the things that need to be considered before starting something, otherwise it's just going to flicker out.

Now, if it's just a group of guys getting together and gaming every weekend in an FIU room someonewhere ( and FIU staff doesn't seem to care about this ) I'm sure it can be less complex and more viable, but you're still going to have to organize everything.

to add to stephan's post ( everything said was true), one other big problem with renting out a space is who the hell is going to run it in terms of manpower and time everyday? Somebody would have to bet there most of the time in case "members" need access and then at that point u might as well start selling and then ur in another situation all together.

NurgleNick wrote:Contracts can be modified on a by-customer basis. I do it all the time. You simply need to speak to the right people. You'd be surprised what kinds of authorization Corporate will give, especially when you're the only game in town, and you've been doing business for over a decade. Just because something is in writing, does not necessarily mean it cannot be tailored to the customer. You willing to go on record that you believe every single independent hobby store in the US pays the exact same prices for wholesale, buddy? How about restaurants? You think every restaurant in the United States that purchases wholesale vegetables from Cisco pays the same price?

Don't wave that silly PDF around like you're Moses, and you just had a heart-to-heart with God. You just don't know how to haggle. The only thing which needs to be explained to the higher-ups is the reduction in price, and if they believe the reduction is justified, you're golden. If a store has no competition, chances are they will sell more merchandise, because they're the only game in town.. and if they're selling more to us, then they're buying more from them.

Again, you sound like your pulling numbers out of your ass. What you say is true, in other industries, but we are talking about game wholesales which do not make such lavish deals. Having worked with two stores in the past on GW products, no GW does not magically make such massive deals, for them to give out free stuff on occasion is just a bonus or customer service, but your never getting 60% off wholesale discount from GW no matter what. Majority of the game distributors as well as companies that sell the games direct such as Dream Pod 9 for example, have their wholesale discounts clearly defined depending on how much you order.

Game wholesale and the whole game industry frankly is a niche market and doesn't deal in the volumes that afford the luxury of other markets in allowing companies to haggle prices. The various distributors and game companies I've dealt with pretty much all start around 44-45% discount usually, with highest discounts for very large orders usually around 50-55% max, and that is generally for ordering a specific product line only.

It's true that not every store pays the same amount wholesale for prices usually, but the reality is they usually do as most game stores don't place massive orders outside of specific product line that might sell well such as GW products in places.... and no GW doesn't haggle, the best you can do with GW is negotiate a different contract for a better discount but in turn you gotta order larger volume depending on very specific terms.

You can set up a wholesale account with all the major distributors of gaming in the US, they are upfront with the pricing and discounts possible. You rarely will see discounts past 50% even if you buy thousands in merchandise, and some of the distributors only give discounts on specific items.... like if you buy so many cases of Star Wars minis, you get a bigger discount on those minis. But if you order only a few of the SW minis and then a ton of other game products, you won't get a better price on the SW minis or anything else as your buying a mixed order.

'Kay.

Anyway.

FIU should be viable. I'll need to speak with a professor who will sponsor the club. The room may be able to be rented for free on specific days of the month, but I'll have to make sure. More information will follow.

In response to this thread, I just put a little feeler poll out there to see how many people would actually be interested in a gaming club.

Go to the polls and vote.

Is there still that one shop (forgot its name) that's close to homestead?

Kyle, if you are referring to "Alpha/Omega" which was in Homestead about one or two years ago, it didn't even last a year.

It had plenty of room, clean and he DID charge for playing and still went out of business in record time.

Here is a joke; "If you want to make a million dollars in games/players market.... start with two million".

Jerry

There's also Outland Station which if I remember asking didnt mind if you played there but they dont have the table setup for it. I guess unless it became lucrative for them they wouldn't care for the extra gamers. I went a while back and they dont necessarily cater to mini gamers. Having an antiquated selection of 40k and WHFB they arent ready for the influx of gamers.

People there play card games and the like.

NurgleNick wrote:'Kay.

Anyway.

FIU should be viable. I'll need to speak with a professor who will sponsor the club. The room may be able to be rented for free on specific days of the month, but I'll have to make sure. More information will follow.

Hey Nick, let me know bro, i also go to FIU, just in case you need nother sig on the request or something.

Dont put Luis' name on it Nick. Then we'll never get our club.

The Dean never forgave Luis for the communist insurrection he was trying to mount on campus. Waiving his I-phone around playing the soviet anthem and shit.